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Walter & Group...
[GH] From Troy Miller :
Still disagree with the assertion that the haul must begin after the rod is somewhat loaded. This is NOT true.
There’s also NOTHING wrong with teaching concurrent motions with rod and line hand (mirror imaging as Gary calls it). In fact, 99% of students grasp this concept immediately if presented to them properly with a demonstration.
I think that teaching styles should be identified as such, just as casting styles are… just because one instructor cannot effectively teach a skill in a certain way does NOT mean that others can’t.
Regards,
Troy Miller ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[GH] Troy,
For me, the "mirror image" concept works when teaching many (though not all) students. Also, when coaching candidates. The idea of matching the stroke effort with that of the casting arm with respect to timing, duration and intensity is a concept that seems work for me when teaching. This despite the fact that I know it is a simplistic approach and far from the whole story when we use different rods and lines and have to modify what we do because of wind and casting objectives other than distance.
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[GH] Mark Milkovitch tackles our haul questions with a crisp set of answers :
Gordy, here is a set of responses to today’s questions. Thanks. Mark Milkovich
1. When in relation to the casting stroke and casting arc should the haul begin?
For haul beginners, the haul starts when the stroke starts. For advanced casters, the hauls can be delayed to add as much line speed as possible as late as possible in the stroke. The advanced casters are also more likely to begin with translation and delay the rotation (arc) during the stroke.
2. At what point, when false casting, should the line hand stop?
To make learning easy for beginners: “when the stroke stops”. For advanced casters: “it is better to stop a fraction too late than a fraction too early.”
3. At what point, when executing the delivery cast should he haul hand release line?
At the line hand “stop”.
4. Can you come up with casting circumstances when it would be advisable to have a significant difference in haul length and speed between forward and back casts?
To compensate for a strong wind from ahead or behind.
5. Is there a fishing circumstance which would be best handled that way?
Sometimes when a bonefish “bolts”, it will grab the fly if you can quickly execute a longer/quicker presentation cast to get the fly in front of it.
6. Do you teach that the haul length and speed be approximately the same for forward and back casts?
Yes
7. When teaching hauls, do you bring up that issue with your students?
Only with students who have a marked tendency to make the forward or back cast differently. It’s not common.
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[GH] Another point of view from Ckling Ling :
1. When in relation to the casting stroke and casting arc should the haul begin ?
Late or even at beginning of STOP sequence up to RSP
2. At what point, when false casting, should the line hand stop ? Around RSP
3. At what point, when executing the delivery cast should he haul hand release line ? Around RSP too
Another reason for failure: (___) Haul length and speed significantly different between front and back .
That brought me to these questions :
4. Can you come up with casting circumstances when it would be advisable to have a significant difference in haul length and speed between forward and back casts ? Casting into wind, casting with wind behind, casting with limited back cast ie switch cast, oval etc
5. Is there a fishing circumstance which would be best handled that way ? As ans.4
6. Do you teach that the haul length and speed be approximately the same for forward and back casts ? Yes, initially. Less variables and confusion.
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[GH] Time to hear from a couple of casting "heavy hitters". Note that both invoke Dennis Grant's dictum, "IT DEPENDS" : -
Bruce Richards weighs in :
1. When in relation to the casting stroke and casting arc should the haul begin ?
****This can vary some, within limits. Hauling before the casting stroke begins does no good. Hauling can start anytime after (or at) the start of the casting stroke. Assuming that the same final hand speed is reached, the later the haul starts the more additional rod bend there will be, the reason top competitive casters delay the haul as long as possible. However, much more difficult to get it right. For most, starting the haul at the beginning of the casting stroke, or shortly after, works best.
2. At what point, when false casting, should the line hand stop ?
****For optimum results, the line hand should stop hauling at RSP. Max hand speed should coincide with max tip speed to attain max line speed. Of course, that doesn't mean that high line speed is always the goal, it is a matter of efficiency.
3. At what point, when executing the delivery cast should he haul hand release line ?
*******That depends on the needed result. For max distance, at RSP. Releasing before that throws slack into the line and will reduce distance and maybe prevent full turnover. Releasing after RSP will force a more powerful turnover, but reduce distance.
Regards,
Bruce
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[GH] This from Steve Rajeff :-
Hi Gordy,
What are you doing sending messages at 3:55 AM? I hope you were heading out to stake out for tarpon right after...
The answers to the questions below is a big, "it depends".
See my comments below.
Steve
1. When in relation to the casting stroke and casting arc should the haul begin ?
There is not any "absolute" moment to start the haul. It depends on many variables: rod stiffness; line weight balance to rod; line tension of back cast; tempo of the false cast;
is it for maximum power/speed gain; or is it for added control in light wind/long leader; is the rod short, medium, long; Is the fly non, lightly, heavily weighted;
how much line is being kept in the air during false cast; how fast/hard is the actual haul applied; length of casting stroke;
With a very stiff rod, light line/light load, tight loop in back cast, long length of line in the air- haul initiation can be simultaneous with aggressive forward stroke.
With a slow " bamboo" action, heavier line relationship, wide loop back cast- haul initiation could be delayed until the stroke is 50% forward in development.
Haul speed application has a significant effect to the timing of the haul. A lazy slow haul, can be applied sooner, than a sharp/fast haul.
Bottom line, haul soon enough to get benefit from haul, but not so soon as to create tailing loop.
2. At what point, when false casting, should the line hand stop ?
This one is a little easier. The haul should stop simultaneous to stop of power stroke.
3. At what point, when executing the delivery cast should he haul hand release line ?
The release should occur at the completion of the power stroke, or very soon thereafter. If the release is late, the line will turn over early in the flight of the shooting cast.
Often the belly of the line, overtakes the tip, and lands in a pile. "Overhang", the length of shooting mono/running line of WF beyond the tip , has significant effect as to
timing of the release. With a long overhang, the release can be delayed. If there is little overhang, the release is much more critical, and should be sooner.
Best regards,
Steve
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[GH] Interesting comment from Rick Brown :
Gordy, I pulled this out of my CCI notebook. I believe it was submitted to Al Crise's group by by Bob Tabbert of Wisconsin. It shows a picture of Bruce Richards executing a haul. Here is the text.
"For better rotational control of the line hand, Bruce places the line across the top of his thumb, and then executes a 'flick' like rotation motion matched to the rotational movement of his rod hand. Done together, the results will surprise you!''
This works for me. I find it fairly easy to do when I am thinking about it, but developing the muscle memory to do it constantly has been a problem.
Rick
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[GH] Rick,
I remember Bruce doing that.
This "End of thumb" trick works because Bruce has used the thumb to make his hauling arm/hand "longer".
Years ago, distance competition casters noted that one could develop a more effective haul with a longer arm .... SO a "Haul Tool" was developed. This was nothing more than a stick with a notch to cradle the line, effectively adding significant length to the hauling extremity. It was subsequently disallowed for competitions.
Bruce added that "flick" as a rotational movement. This moved the line instantly farther than could have been accomplished with the haul hand used in a conventional manner.
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[GH] A candidate's perspective, from Gary Davison :
Gordy
As a candidate looking at the task.
Hauling is an incredible step for the fly caster. This takes our casting from one level to the next. Equivalent to driving a standard engine vs a turbo charged engine in a car. The benefits are tremendous for the caster with regards to line speed and distance traveled for the cast. So the importance of teaching this is enormous in my opinion.
Knowing when to make the haul in the cast is very important and precision timing is needed. How to implement this into the cast is very important. Key point for me is just a little slippage of line in the hand during the application can have a great affect on the outcome of the cast. So a smooth application and precise holding of the line at the correct time during the cast is needed to make this pay off for the caster. As I have always contended the pinching of the line during the cast can be critical for obtaining the full benefit of the rod's loading abilities. .
I feel this type of teaching comes in two levels. One for beginners and one for more advanced casters. This has been expressed to me by a number of Master's. For the beginner we start the haul when the cast begins and it ends when the cast ends. This takes the guess work out of the task for the beginner. For the more advanced caster we teach that the haul begins as the rod loads. We accelerate the rod tip under line tension then apply the haul where it has be best benefit. As we have always stated feel has a lot to do with when this takes place based on the outlay of line for the cast.
I would like to add that alignment of the haul in relation to the rod is very important in my opinion. The pulling of the line and giving back should be in good alignment with the rod meaning directly away and down not out to the side causing bad drag on the guides. Also the giving back of line on the haul by bring the line hand and rod hand together to obtain full benefit and showing good form for the haul is imperative. Meaning rod hand and haul hand coming together upon completion of the stroke to start the next stroke weather it be the back or forward.
Note: This is all for nothing if you do not have good technique, meaning all the essentials working for you on the cast.
At this point, I'd like to air some of your opinions on that issue. I'll start by asking these questions. I often ask some of them on an oral exam :
1. When in relation to the casting stroke and casting arc should the haul begin ? Depends if they are a beginner or advance caster. Note for an advance caster on the MCI test I would say when the sign of rod loading begins.
2. At what point, when false casting, should the line hand stop ? When it returns to rod hand!
3. At what point, when executing the delivery cast should he haul hand release line ? I do not release the line! I open my fingers to allow the line to shoot through my thumb and forefinger with out resistance as I move my line hand back up to the rod hand after the shoot. My opinion you should not release the line. By doing this you loose line control. *That is under normal circumstance when fishing.
Another reason for failure: (___) Haul length and speed significantly different between front and back .
That brought me to these questions :
4. Can you come up with casting circumstances when it would be advisable to have a significant difference in haul length and speed between forward and back casts ? Under normal conditions no, but if you had wind involved where the need to obtain the optimum line speed with less haul then yes can see this happening. Line Speed and Line Carry is the main objective for distance casting.
5. Is there a fishing circumstance which would be best handled that way ? Casting in windy conditions. Using the conditions to your benefit. Being more efficient with your casting.
6. Do you teach that the haul length and speed be approximately the same for forward and back casts ? I provide the following. Long Cast - Long Haul, Short Cast - Short Haul. Speed can vary as long as it is applied with smooth application and does not spike the system with excessive power.
7. When teaching hauls, do you bring up that issue with your students ? No. I basically provide the standards as Long Cast - Long Haul, Short Cast - Short Haul. Express the importance of their correct applications and the importance of the caster to feel each cast being made, and implement the hauls with variation to see what works best for their style of casting. They need to seek the methods of obtaining line speed and distance out of their casting. I can instruct and help in showing them my means of application. Ultimately it is up to them to implement and apply to suite their casting style to obtain the optimum efficiency out of their casting.
When hosting a Masters exam, I usually ask the candidate to show me how he/she would teach hauling as part of Task 12. I'll sometimes pose as a "difficult student" who feeds slack into an ill timed haul.
Question:
BRIEFLY let us know how you would do this if this were an "ex;plain and demonstrate" task.
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[GH] Pete Greenan comments on Dusty Sprague's note on "requirements creep" (Making the exam progressively more difficult by adding requirements over the course of time) :
Listening to Dusty and reading his post encourages me to suggest we go with what we’ve got for a few years. I think we need to see how well the test accomplishes the job it was meant to do. Besides, it doesn’t do well to change the thing every year. No one could keep up.
Pete Greenan/Fl
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[GH] Pete,
I'm in full agreement.
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[GH] Jon Burgess sends this message on the MCI Prep Workshop given in Australia by Brian Henderson and Tony Loader :
Hi Gordy
Just a quick e-mail to echo Shaun Ash's comments (Task 12 discussion 3) on the recent workshop held by Brian Henderson and Tony Loader, which I was lucky enough to attend.
In short, in my opinion, this workshop was extremely beneficial to all, and far exceeded my own expectations.
We covered in detail only tasks 1 to 5. This may seem a small portion of the complete exam but I quickly realised this was simply the beginning of a long haul. In addition, rather than view this as simply "covering five tasks", it was necessary to instill in us an almost formal, methodical approach to each task.
While several of those who attended arrived with some confidence that they had covered to some considerable degree not only these five tasks but also several beyond that point (and in addition been part of your own work group which had already largely discussed these), we were sharply bought down to earth. Not only did we realise that performance of the tasks was possibly even more demanding than most had realised, but also our understanding of aspects of each task was often simply not as "focussed" as we have now realised is necessary.
To repeat the words I have so often heard in your group - working with, or at the very least a pre-test with, a knowledgable master (or above) is almost an absolute necessity before even attempting this exam.
My sincere thanks to Brian and Tony for their assistance - I think we shall all be back for more before actually sitting the exam.
The only criticism was that I found myself far too busy enjoying the workshop to spend as much time fishing as I would have liked.
Regards,
Jon Burgess
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