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  • RE: Question - weeds / Mel



    Title: Message
    Walter....
     
    I understand.  In my field (Medicine / Surgery) we take many oral exams and as a teacher of surgery I have given many over a 45 year period.  For years I've coached young surgeons as they prepare to take their Board exams.
     
    In a way, as I serve as an expert witness regularly in court and on depositions in medical malpractice cases and lawsuits against hospitals and nursing homes ...... as well as occasional testimony in Federal Court on patent infringement cases (several on things I've invented) , I'm grilled on a regular basis.
     
    This gives me an in-depth understanding of the question and answer process as I do this on an ongoing basis.
     
    My second favorite sport is leading lawyers in court when they think they are leading me !  I love it when I can lead them on the direct exam and cut their throats on the cross !!!!!!
     
    My technique is to study a case to the point that I know it much better than the lawyers on either side, then only  agree to testify on those cases where I am truly convinced and have solid backup for each and every opinion.
     
    I'm very proud of the fact that even though I keep anywhere from 15 to 20 active cases in progress at any one time, that I have not testified in a single lost case in the past 14 years.
     
    Helps keep my brain active even though I'll be 78 next month.  (Just like a muscle ..... it has to be exercised.)
     
    Gordy
     
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Walter Simbirski [mailto:simbirsw@xxxxxxx]
    Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 1:49 PM
    To: Gordon Hill
    Subject: Re: Question - weeds / Mel

    Actually, I have almost no experience with oral exams. That could explain a few
    things.
     
    I have learned a tremendous amount working with other candidates. You can tell the
    ones that are going to do well and it's very satisfying when you help someone move
    from a borderline candidate to someone who will do well.
     
    It looks like the idea of doing dry runs will happen at next year's conclave. It will be
    interesting to see if this improves the ratio of people who take the test vs the number
    that pass.
    ----- Original Message -----
    Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 10:55 AM
    Subject: RE: Question - weeds / Mel

    Walter...
     
    You have great insight !
     
    Yes.... it could get tedious.  Must never be overdone and has to be handled with great tact.
     
    You and I have taken innumerable exams in our educated lives.  That is NOT the case with many candidates.  This is why I'm trying gently to help them with the exam process itself.
     
    By knowing the intricacies of taking an oral exam, the candidate can be more relaxed and the examiner will then be more likely to get the best out of him.  An up-tight candidate is far less likely to do well.
     
    Best,
     
    Gordy
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Walter Simbirski [mailto:simbirsw@xxxxxxx]
    Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 12:34 PM
    To: Gordy Hill
    Subject: Re: Question - weeds / Mel

    Gordy,
     
    Looks like I have much work to do based on my answer. First, I answered the wrong question. Second, my
    answer was too long - I need to pay attention to the short answer/long answer format. Third, my advice wasn't all
    that useful or indicates a lack of experience. Personally, I've found that the roll cast pick up or a false cast with a bit of
    snap isn't that effective at removing weeds and that indicates that I need to practise the technique more or that I lack
    experience in fishing with surface weeds.
     
    I like the idea of providing a short answer and then following up with, "That's one of many techniques." My experience is
    that not all examiners use the same approach. While everyone likes concise answers not everyone adheres to the
    short answer/long answer format. When providing a short answer there is the danger that the examiner may not probe for
    additional information and may form the impression that the candidate lacks depth with their answers. By adding, phrases
    like "short answer is...", or "...that's one of a number of techniques", the examiner should then realize you have more
    information if they want to probe deeper. It's probably only necessary to do this a few times at the start of the test
    in order to establish a pattern, otherwise this could get tedious.
     
    Again, thanks for your advice and all of the time you put into this teaching venue.
     
    Walter
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Gordy Hill
    Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2008 8:27 AM
    Subject: Question - weeds / Mel

    Walter & Group........

    I posed this seemingly oversimplified question for a reason.

    Sometimes, when giving an MCI exam, I'll do that to give the candidate lots of latitude to answer.  The answer to what seems like such a simple fishing question can tell me a great deal about his/her actual experience in handling and teaching mundane everyday solutions to real world problems not often discussed in the fly casting literature or courses.

    Read the answers from members of our Group and you will see what I mean.

    Gordy

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Question:  Your student asks you for various means of getting weeds off his fly as he fishes in waters with lots of surface weed growth.  What do you tell him ?

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Answer from Rene Hesse:

    Short answer:
     
    Roll the line out in a very small loop and 'snap' the fly out of the water as the loop reaches the fly.
     
    Longer answer:
     
     Rather than make a roll cast with the big 'D' loop, try just lifting the rod tip up and keep it in front of your body.  Make a quick power snap and send the small tight loop down the line.  When the loop gets to the leader, make a quick pick-up on the back cast.
     
    Oh but wait there's more!
     
    Try false casting and (away from the fish) clip the top of the water with the fly to pull the moss off..
     
    If you need to get the fly to hand.  point the rod 180 degrees from the fly, let the line come to your line hand, do a roll cast so the line slips through your line hand and the leader slips to your hand.  Tuck your rod under your arm and pull the leader in to clean the fly with your hands. 
     
    Another way to get the line in quick is by lifting the rod up and back down quickly one time.  That  creates a loop that goes up and pulls the fly back to your hand. Caution should be taken because that fly will be coming right at you. (wide brim hat, glasses and sun gloves make this much safer)
     
    Rene
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    This is a Master quality answer
     
     It tells me that the "candidate" has real experience in fly fishing and that he has more than one way of solving a real world problem in his bag of tricks.  He starts with a SHORT ANSWER and then is fully prepared to expand with a detailed one.
     
    Let's say that his student didn't understand his answers.  He might then go to a simple analogy in suggesting that this move is similar to the way we flicked towels at each other's backsides in the locker room at the gym when we were kids.  With the fly line, the move is very much like that.  I'd follow with a demo and then have the student do and practice it.  We might even move to Tom White's:  ADVANTAGES (Gets soft weed off in a heartbeat.)   and DISADVANTAGES (You will spook every fish in the pool if you don't do it well away from the area where they may be ...... and you stand the risk of damaging a less than well tied fly.)
     
    If the student wanted more information on Rene's last paragraph, this could lead to teaching the SNAP PICKUP and the SNAP CAST.  (Ref: THE NATURE OF FLY CASTING, Jason Borger, p. 252-253.)
     
     
     
    Gordy
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Jim Penrod offers a two part "SHORT ANSWER" as he touts one simple method of getting the weeds off and then starts the ball rolling in the direction of preventing the problem in the first place.  His second sentence dilutes the impact of the first just a bit.:
     
    With weed on :
     
    Roll cast pick up and then drop the fly again.
     
     If being on the surface is not that important use a sinking fly
    or even a sink tip with weighted fly to avoid the weeds.
    Jim
     
    One neat trick in taking oral exams is to softly lead your examiners into asking the next question to which you know the answer well.  I might have answered it this way:
     
    "Roll cast pickup and then drop the fly again.  That is one of many methods."
     
    Your examiners are, then, likely to have you expand on it.
     
    Gordy
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    From Lewis Hinks:
     
     
        Weeds: An ounce of prevention..... Use a weed guard on your fly such as a mono loop, ues flies have have an upturned hook (unside down, if you will), cast to the clear areas in the weeds, fishing those and pull fly out before tangling, and a I have used several forceful false casts to 'shake' the weeds and other plant material off in the past.
     
    Lewis
     
    Lewis's answer is in no way wrong and offers some good advice..... however, it is a bit weak because he starts with prevention, which was not the essence of the question.  Much better for him to have started with his last statement and then added his ounce of prevention afterward or even to have waited until his examiner asked it.
     
    CANDIDATES SHOULD BE VERY CAREFUL TO LISTEN TO THE QUESTION AND FORMULATE AN ANSWER TO ITS MAIN POINT.
     
    Gordy
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    From Al Crise about Mel :
     
     
    Howdy Gordy
      Thanks for the tribute to Mel. There are a few on the FFF site too
     I met Mel in 1999 at Gatlinburg TN Conclave. What a gentile man. Nola got to meet him in Mountain Home AR a few years latter. They to struck it off well and became friends. I would kid Nola that her Boyfriend would be at this conclave. That would ensure I got to go.
     I will miss Mel, his Tilly hat and mink fly. I too lost a friend. instructor mentor. I too have a bag of Talismans.
     A quote from Mel as he walked off from teaching the youth camp at SOC conclave.
     
     "Remember it is Stop Stop not Flop Flop"
     
     
    ol Al
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Al....  One of many of Mel's great teaching "word pictures" !  Shows that Mel will be teaching long after he has been gone.
     
    Gordy