Energy transfer / leaders

Walter & Group........

Question from Rene Hesse:

Gordy,

 

The information on the diameter of tip to butt of 2/3 is good to know and I will be using this in the future

to construct leaders. 

 

My question has to do with the connector  and the remainder of the leader for tarpon fishing.

 

I receieved the formula you put together for Eric Cook and I will be putting some together for my visit with Peter next month. 

 

With all of the different connections and the 'double' strands of line/ shock tippets... isn't most of the energy transfer disrupted?  My thinking is that a shock or bite tippet will be heavier than the class line and

will not turn it over at the end.  I haven't cast this type leader and it seems that it would hinge.

 

I haven't tried your formula yet because there was a combination that I didn't understand, and if you feel that i'll 'get it' when I tie one up then disregard the message.

 

Thanks for hosting the forum.

Rene

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Rene ...

It doesn't hinge.   Reason:    That heavy, "bite tippet" ("shock tippet") at the end is only a foot long or perhaps a tad longer.  The leader has a heavy butt section a little more than half the length of the entire leader assembly.

Transfer of power with very little dissipation of energy goes all the way to the class tippet with its knots.  Some of the energy is dissipated at this point, but there is still plenty left to turn over that bite tippet and fly (almost as though you were turning over a foot long fly ..... as we do when we fish for bill fish or large stripers eating foot long bunkers.)

The layout can be nice and straight ..... but the presentation not at all delicate.   Lack of delicacy is due to the fact that there is still energy left in the system as turnover is complete.

We'll tie some up and do some of several different designs for different actual fishing circumstances when you get here to the Keys.

Gordy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

From Troy Miller:

G'morning Gordy --

 

I just replied to your earlier message, and in it I describe my experience with furled leaders (ZERO stiffness).  You can easily make a furled leader straighten completely out depending on how you design it.  And, you can make it correct mass in the butt to effectively eliminate any line kick.  That leads me to believe that stiffness is not a dominating factor.  But then, as I mentioned in the Harvey Dry Fly Leader discussion, you can alter the result of the "hinge kick" by messing with material stiffnesses.  So I agree that both have an effect, but mass seems more important to me.

 

The way I make my furled leaders, I usually have a 16-14-12-10 taper for 5 through 7 weight lines, and a 12-10-8-6 taper for 2 through 4 weights.  I make them between 7 and 8-1/2 feet long (based on my logic of the moment), then use a short section of perfection-looped 3X tapered to the desired tippet for the 16-14-12-10, and 4X tapered down on the 12-10-8-6 version.  I normally use the softest fluoro that I can find for all the mono end -- for me Rio FluoroFlex Plus works beautifully.  The fact that the tip of the furled section has similar mass but none of the stiffness that the fluoro does -- and that it still performs well -- seems testament to me that mass is the more critical factor.  But what do I know...?  :)

Regards -- TAM

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Troy....

GOOD ONE !  I think you have answered my question.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

More evidence by use of a interesting analogy, from Jeff Barefoot:-

Hi Folks,

The cornerstone of a fly cast is mass in motion. The moving line passes

itself up because we stopped one end of it and it has the momentum to keep

going. Stiffness does factor on how a loop turns over because a stiffer

material does not want to flex as easy as the line behind it is trying to

pass it up, but its stiffness is not as dominant factor as it’s mass.

Imagine casting a heavy steel chain. It has plenty of mass but no stiffness

but will cast beautifully if you have the stones to get it all moving in a

straight line and stop the leading end of it. I hope I am not getting any

of this out of context.

Jeff Barefoot

 

Gordy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jeff:  Not at all out of context !     Gordy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Ally Gowans helps to put things in perspective :

Hi Gordy,

 

I think that stiffness, mass and diameter qualities of a material are each important when tying leaders for a particular purpose, fortunately these properties are broadly speaking proportional. The fly also plays a part in the energy transfer relationship because it requires to have delivered to it sufficient energy to achieve what the angler wants. The first criterion is choice of an appropriate line size for the job and here I definitely think that mass is more important than profile. Without question the line/leader/fly combination is “a system” and flies that are “difficult to cast” are usually partly at least so due to an imperfect line/leader relationship. Worst of all are flies that have a large drag factor, they are hard to lift cleanly and smoothly and particularly unpredictable in a wind. Even more so with a Spey type cast that depends on a smooth lift from an anchor.

 

Best wishes,

Ally Gowans

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From Guy Manning:

Gordy,

Bruce writes:

The issue is the same at either end of the line. Matching mass is much more

important than stiffness. It is easy to match line to leader butt stiffness

with stiff, but light monofilament. The energy is contained in the moving

mass of the line. If the mass at the transition changes dramatically, so

will the speed. If the same energy is transferred to a lighter mass, speed

must increase to conserve energy, which results in a big "kick", even if

the leader butt is stiff. Regardless of stiffness, for smooth energy

transfer there cannot be a radical change in mass. That is the reason for

the rule stating that leader butts should be approx. 2/3 of line tip

diameter for best performance. Nylon has a specific gravity of approx. 1.2,

fly lines, about .85.

Being more dense leader butts of 2/3 line tip dia.

have nearly equal mass. Simple physics really, but not well understood by

many…

It needs to be pointed out that Bruce is talking about floating lines here. To match the mass on many sinking lines and integrated shooting heads it may require using mono of a diameter considerably greater than the diameter of the tip of the sinking line. A couple of years back I was on a personal crusade to solve the line kick problem at leader turnover on my SA Deepwater Express lines. When using a 9 foot leader of 40#, 30#, 20# section the line would kick as the tip turned over and the whole leader and the last 6 or 7 feet of fly line would end up in a heap.  That equated to a loss of about 15 feet in distance and a major loss in accuracy. Most of my casts were dumping at about 75 to 80 feet.

I contacted Bruce and he told me I could possibly solve the problem using heavier material than 40# or by extending the length of the leader (I understood that we should be trying to match the mass of each line, but going to a greater diameter seemed counter-intuitive). I was already tossing a 9 foot leader and it seemed it would take an unnecessarily long leader to dampen that much kick. So I tried using differing diameters of butt material. On a 400 grain head I was still getting a lot of line kick with 60# test line as the butt section of the leader. I couldn’t find anything heavier locally to continue the experiment with.

But I realized I was just creating another issue. I still had an issue on how to dampen the kick even if I could find some 70# or 80# test line that would do the job. Let’s say the 70# test seemed to dampen the kick. So I now use it as a butt section and try to add a commercial tippet. There will be such a diameter difference between the 2 sections that I will still have kick, just at a different place. It will now occur at the end of the butt section instead of at the end of the line. I could start building leaders in 60, 50, 40, 30 and 20# but that means I need a lot of materials and each knot in the connection becomes a potential weak point. Additionally trying to tie 70# test on a relatively smaller diameter fly line tip is not very secure since the 70# test line doesn’t like to turn around that small of a diameter.

Guy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Guy....

As soon as Bruce said he derived his 2/3rd formula by comparing specific gravities (SG's) of line and butt section of the leader, I picked up on that and came to the same conclusion you did.

Obviously, the SG. of a sinking line is far greater than the SG. of 1 (one) which represents fresh water... else it wouldn't sink.  It is far greater than the SG. of the floating line which is less than 1 (one) else it wouldn't float.

I found the same thing you did when constructing tarpon leaders for use with sinking lines as well as floaters.  My compromise is to use 50lb. to 60 lb. test moderately soft butt sections of 50%of the entire leader length and have that kick occur as the final turnover of the bite tippet with fly attached.

Works fine.

Gordy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

From Jim Higgens :-

From Bruce's comments:

 

That is the reason for the rule stating that leader butts should be approx. 2/3 of line tip

diameter for best performance. Nylon has a specific gravity of approx. 1.2,

fly lines, about .85. Being more dense leader butts of 2/3 line tip dia.

have nearly equal mass.

If I am understanding this right the fly line specific gravity of about .85 applies to floating lines, but sinking lines will have specific gravity greater than 1.0, so the 2/3 rule will come closer to 1to1 and in some cases may exceed 1to1.

Jim Higgins

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From Walter Simberski:

Gordy,

 

One of the things missing from the discussion of hinging is the concept of tension and it's affect

on the line during the cast. As the loop unrolls it pulls the fly leg forward causing tension. Since tension

is a type of force it means that the greater the mass of line in the loop the greater the amount of

tension exterted on the fly leg. The greater the amount of tension in the fly leg the slower it will

fall to the ground and the more line we can carry.

 

One way to look at this is to take 10 feet of chain and a 10 foot iron rod suspended

by their endpoints above the ground. If we remove the supports at both ends simultaneously the rod

and chain will fall to the ground together. If we remove the support at one end only the chain will fall to the

ground first. In this case the stiffness of the rod simulates the tension in the fly leg.

 

We can certainly feel this when casting a shooting head. As we increase the amount of overhang

we reach a point where our ability to carry more line degrades quickly (rather than degrading linearly)

regardless of how good our form is. This is because the energy of the line varies with the square of the

velocity of the line rather than linearly. At the same time the air resistance or drag on the loop varies

with the square of the velocity of the loop and this drag is working to reduce the speed of the line in

the loop to its natural terminal velocity.

 

Regards

 

Walter

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Walter....

I like your analogy.  Makes it easier to understand !        Gordy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~