Walter & Group.........
Just a few years back I had an opportunity to
take a lesson from Mel Krieger. With little time I had to cut to the
chase. So when his full attention was directed to me - I asked him if he
could help me throw 120' casts with my 5 weight. He asked me to take the
tip of the rod, while with the butt he created a deep bend just above the
grip. He assured me the rod would not break. "If you want to throw
120', you must bend the rod deep" - He then demonstrated a pulling technique
which begins with translational movement and delayed rotation as you discuss
above. It took at least a year to digest his message and I now believe the
significance of the pull stroke is that it allows the caster to begin rotation
with a deep bend in the rod. As this deeply loaded (bent) rod becomes
perpendicular with the ground plane, it begins to unload. Delayed
rotation/ translation removes the slack ((Bruce) and there should be very little
slack to begin with!). So our rotational and hauling efforts work toward
maximizing angular velocity, which results in a very long cast.
When we have to rely on the haul to remove slack, we are not going to win
any distance competitions!
Jim.....
I agree with all your statements except for your thought that the, "pull
stroke" allows the caster to begin rotation with a deep bend in the rod.
If by, "pull stroke" you mean pure translation. There was no way we could
gain more than a tiny bend in the rod without adding SOME rotation. A
combination of translation and rotation did result in a good bend in the rod ...
but NOT pure translation.
It is very difficult to demonstrate pure translation with no rotation at
all. We tried to demo that last week at the Marlboro show Continued Ed.
course .... and, again, yesterday. The caster feels as though he his
making only pure translation, but a critic standing off to one side almost
always noted a certain amount of rotation mixed with it. This is also what
we see in the video studies as well. With pure translation, there can be
no angular change of the butt section of the rod.
This shows me that in the, "real world" of casting, rarely if ever do we
have a caster who actually starts the cast with translation alone. By the
same token, even elite casters have some translation of the hand at the
conclusion of the cast as rotation dominates.
I have been reviewing Joan Wulff's book, "Fly
Casting Techniques". Joan's description of "slide loading" (pages
107,125-127) in my mind could constitute "creeping".
She indicates that the line hand and the rod hand
are moving toward each other while the line hand is releasing line and
the back cast is "still unrolling".
She states that this move if done correctly will
increase the load on the rod.
I have attempted to incorporate it in my own
casting. When I have achieved the correct timing, the rod did feel that is
was loaded to a greater extent. However, I have not documented that
it added more distance.
This might be a good question for the
group.
Dave Hutchinson
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Dave........
Read p. 107 of Joan's book very carefully.
What she is describing is movement of the LINE HAND toward the stripper guide as
the forward motion of the rod begins. She does not say anything about
movement of the rod in the direction of the cast while the back cast loop is
still unrolling. As I see it and watch her do it, I do not find that
she is shortening her forward casting stroke nor diminishing her rod arc at
all.
Many say they have been confused by reading this
section, because of this quote: "TheThe line hand and rod hand work as described
through the power snap backward. Then, in the time it takes for the rod hand to
move backward in the drift move and make the forward
loading move, the line hand, following up towrd
the first guide at the speed o the unrolling line, is still moving upward as the
rod hand is moving forward." (red italics, mine.) I'm certain
that when she says, ".....and make the forward loading move" that she does not
mean doing it while the line behind is still unrolling. This is even more
clear, to me, in her description on p. 125.
This means, to me, that there is no creep with this
technique by any of these descriptions: 1. Creep is movement of the
rod between casting strokes which results in
decreasing potential stroke length and/or the
casting arc. 2. Creep is movement of the fly rod in a direction opposite
that of an unrolling loop. 3. Creep is minimally accelerated slow movement of
the rod prior to the start of the casting stroke and rod arc.
I favor #1 as a preferred definition.
My take on this technique is that she is using it
to smooth out the start of her forward cast. I don't see it as increasing
the load on the rod or increasing tip travel as the product of both stroke
length and casting arc. For this reason, I see no increase distance
achieved. That is what you have observed. Joan said that, too in her
final paragraph on p 107. On p. 108, she gives the flavor of what I said
about smoothing out the cast.
Gordy
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Without my input, let's have some comments on this,
"slide loading" from members of the Group
Gordy
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From Bill Toone....
The difference I see
regarding style verses substance for grips in regards to beginning casters
referencing the below email is:
- As mentioned below by both Gordy
and Jerry, both change grips regarding casting and fishing situations. I
agree 100% with this and do the same. The difference however is our
casting ability and knowledge far surpasses that of a beginning student.
We know what works, what doesn’t and why. A beginning caster has no such level
of knowledge or ability to make that determination, at least not without the
interaction of his/her instructor. As the caster develops their own
style as well as a solid foundation of the basics, changing grips is a natural
progression of learning (i.e. experimentation). However, a beginning
caster is a clean or nearly clean slate with no particular style yet
developed. In my humble opinion they need a starting point to be given
in order to develop a style and learn the fundamentals. Once that does
happen then other grips can evolve.
- Secondly, as stated below it is
the instructor who directed the student to experiment with a different grip
after observing the student
casting, and then determining a grip change may influence the caster’s
observed issues. Not the student doing it on his own. If you give
the student multiple grips to make their own decision to use you haven’t
established a baseline to properly observe their casting and development of
the basics – once again this logic applies to only beginning to
intermediate beginner casters. After the
intermediate beginner stage, grip becomes and remains a style
issue.
Respectfully these are
just my opinions and observations from teaching. My experience and
knowledge level is much less than yours so please feel free to rip my logic
apart.
Regards,
Bill
Toone
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Bill.... I can't
fault your logic. A refreshingly interesting way of looking a
this.
Gordy
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