Paul & Jeff....
Could we not look at it as an action in which the caster ROTATES THE BUTT SECTION OF THE ROD TO A STOP ?
I think both of you are correct.
Gordy
From: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Jeff Wagner" <jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
CC: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: STOP?
Date: Thu, 19 Jan 2006 03:26:27 -0000
Hi Jeff,
Sure I stop the rod, but by the time I've stopped the energy
has been transferred. Dunno which video you're looking at but the
most recent is http://www.sexyloops.com/movies/shufflecast/shuffle.mpg
Interesting contrast to http://www.sexyloops.com/movies/distancecast/distancecast2.mpg
"The problem with your description is that is
>not always true. In a very short cast the angle could be a 90."
In which case it's not a stopless cast.
I'm not arguing that a crisp stop isn't a good thing; I think it often is but
not because of "efficient energy transfer", but rather because the crisp
stop is preceded by sharp butt rotation and that's the key. The stop is
a stop, for many years I fell into the trap of mixing butt stop with butt rotation.
I think that's what you are doing now.
Cheers,
Paul
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Wagner" <jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 4:55 AM
Subject: Re: STOP?
>Paul,
>
>I think we are on the same track no matter how much of what I say
>you agree,
>because about half of what you are saying doesnt make any sense to
>me.
>
>Power application is just that, the application of power. Energy
>transfer is
>just that the transfer of energy. I can hold a rod in mind hand
>that is loaded
>full of energy because I applied a force to the rod to make it move
>and then
>applied a force (energy) to make it stop. It is at this point where
>the rod
>butt has stopped that the rod tip can unflex and the energy can
>transfer into
>the rod. The application part has stopped (in a physical sense of
>me applying
>force tot he rod) and now the energy stored in the bent rod is being
>release..
>
>The way I see it in my minds eye the angle is acute with the butt of
>the rod
>and the fly line. The tip of the rod could be pointed forward, the
>butt toward
>the caster and the fly line would be attached to the tip and
>pointing in the
>same direction as the butt toward the caster. In this description
>Yes the more
>straight the rod becomes the more energy has been transfered. I
>agree with
>that. I said that in several previous e-mails by stating that as
>the rod
>unflexes the energy is released. The problem with your description
>is that is
>not always true. In a very short cast the angle could be a 90.
>
>Of course rod rotation and rod unbending give more energy and speed
>to the cast,
>that is not debatable. An angular rotation at any velocity is a
>continuous
>acceleration which gives a great load to the rod but also increases
>line speed
>dircetly.
>
>Of the video of you distace casting that I have seen on the website
>and last
>year at the conclave. I thought I saw a stop. It may not be the
>classic stop
>that youa re thinking of but there is definitley a quick
>deceleration.
>
>--
>Jeff Wagner
>
>Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly Fishers
>Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
>Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
>Redington Pro Staff
>970-481-5887
>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>www.dhflyfishing.com
>
>
>
>--
>Jeff Wagner
>
>Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly Fishers
>Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
>Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
>Redington Pro Staff
>970-481-5887
>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>www.dhflyfishing.com
>
>
>Quoting Paul Arden <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>
>>Hi Jeff,
>>I disagree with about half of what you've written below.
>>Power application is the transfer of energy from hand to
>>rod butt.
>>
>>The only thing I can add to anything I've written earlier is this:
>>
>>As the angle the butt makes to the line becomes acute,
>>ie approaches zero, the load on the tip diminishes,
>>the rod straightens and transfers energy to the line.
>>
>>I believe this results in a higher tip speed and not lower
>>since tip speed has now become a combination of
>>rod rotation and rod unbending and not rod unbending alone.
>>
>>For what it's worth I use a stopless cast for distance.for
>>seven weights and below. I don't have the strength to
>>do it with heavier lines.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Paul
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Wagner"
>><jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>Cc: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
>>Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 5:47 PM
>>Subject: Re: STOP?
>>
>>
>>>I think we are saying the exact same thing. Power application is
>>>energy
>>>transfer. If the power application is over a longer period of
>>>time then it is
>>>a longer energy dissipation. Power application and energy go hand
>>>in hand. The pooint of a power application is to transfer energy
>>>from our body to the
>>>rod and to the fly line. If we are talking specifically about rod
>>>unload the
>>>energy is being transfered to the fly line from the rod. If we
>>>are talking
>>>about a classic power application meaning the speed up to a stop
>>>we are
>>>applying energy. But in a lazy stop the dissipation is occuring
>>>over a longer
>>>period of time. To this I mean that there is only so much energy
>>>that will be
>>>transfered to the fly line as the rod unflexes. If this happens
>>>quick a great
>>>deal of energy will be transfered to the line in an effective
>>>instant when the
>>>line is begining to move beyond the rod. If I were to exagerate
>>>this movement
>>>by decelerating slowly the fly line could continue to move forward
>>>while I move
>>>the rod down or to the side slightly, with a short cast the line
>>>could
>>>completely unroll before I have stopped the rod fully. If the
>>>line unrolls
>>>fully and then I fully stop by a continual deceleration no
>>>effective energy
>>>would be transfered. In which my timing sucks. If I would have
>>>stopped the
>>>rod more abruptly then the energy would have been used more
>>>effectively.
>>>
>>>I am not sure how you can say power application is the problem.
>>>In the classic
>>>sense of the word the power application is getting the rod to
>>>bend. If we are
>>>taling about a deceleration (lazy stop) then the power application
>>>is already
>>>over. However, since power application is such a broad term it
>>>could be used
>>>to describe the power applied to create the stop. As could
>>>energy, we could
>>>say energy has to be applied to the rod to make it stop.
>>>
>>>I am not sure where we are going with this?
>>>
>>>--
>>>Jeff Wagner
>>>
>>>Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly Fishers
>>>Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>Redington Pro Staff
>>>970-481-5887
>>>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>www.dhflyfishing.com
>>>
>>>
>>>Quoting Paul Arden <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>>>
>>>>Hi Jeff,
>>>>I disagree that the "problem" with a lazy stop is energy
>>>>transfer.
>>>>It may be power application, it may be tip path, but it is not
>>>>energy transfer.
>>>>
>>>>"A very rapid
>>>>>deceleration more effectively transfers the energy into the fly
>>>>>line, because
>>>>>it is a over a short period of time."
>>>>
>>>>The transfer of energy is not time dependent.
>>>>
>>>>Cheers,
>>>>Paul
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Wagner"
>>>><jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>Cc: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
>>>>Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:44 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: STOP?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Paul,
>>>>>
>>>>>The enregy that is transfered anytime very rarely stays in one
>>>>>from. While a
>>>>>great deal of energy would be a movement a kinetic energy as
>>>>>most know it. It
>>>>>will still produce some heat and some sound (possibly) although
>>>>>they may be
>>>>>very minimal the transfer is not 100% motion. Friction between
>>>>>the fibers,
>>>>>much like friction between uscle fibers, will create some heat.
>>>>>You asked what
>>>>>type of energy I guess I misread the problem.
>>>>>
>>>>>What I was trying to convey is that wether a very long
>>>>>deceleration or a very
>>>>>short deceleration (stop as we think of it), energy is still
>>>>>transfered from
>>>>>the flexed rod to the fly line as the rod unflexes propelling
>>>>>the line forward.
>>>>>The difference between these decelerations is how much of the
>>>>>energy would be
>>>>>usable to efficiently propelling the fly line forward. A very
>>>>>rapid
>>>>>deceleration more effectively transfers the energy into the fly
>>>>>line, because
>>>>>it is a over a short period of time. This concept is similar to
>>>>>the timig of
>>>>>the release of the haul. I will not describe as I think we could
>>>>>get off on
>>>>>another tangent as that is another greatly debated topic. But
>>>>>it is more
>>>>>effective releasing at one time during the stroke. The same
>>>>>could be said for
>>>>>the stop and the transfer of energy from the rod to the fly
>>>>>line. A slow
>>>>>deceleration releases the energy over a longer period of time
>>>>>with less energy
>>>>>being trasnfered at any one instant, thus transfering less
>>>>>energy into the fly
>>>>>line at any one instance.
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>Jeff Wagner
>>>>>
>>>>>Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly
>>>>>Fishers
>>>>>Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>Redington Pro Staff
>>>>>970-481-5887
>>>>>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>www.dhflyfishing.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Quoting Paul Arden <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Hi Jeff,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"The energy would be in the form of heat, movemenet, sound
>>>>>>(very
>>>>>>>little)."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Are you saying the rod gets hotter with a lazy stop?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Movement I can understand, the energy is dissipated from rod to
>>>>>>line
>>>>>>or better stated, transferred.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>That's how I understand it anyway.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Cheers,
>>>>>>Paul
>>>>>>
>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Wagner"
>>>>>><jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>Cc: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:48 AM
>>>>>>Subject: Re: STOP?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Paul,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Eergy dissipated on a lazy stop is simply dissipated over a
>>>>>>>longer period of
>>>>>>>time and less of the energy would be transfered and used in
>>>>>>>prepolling the
>>>>>>>line. The energy would be in the form of heat, movemenet,
>>>>>>>sound (very little).
>>>>>>>But to me its not what it is transferred as but when, it is
>>>>>>>the timing. If I
>>>>>>>cast 40 feet of line and make two consecutive casts 1 with a
>>>>>>>solid stop and the
>>>>>>>other with a longer stop a wider loop would form and less line
>>>>>>>speed would be
>>>>>>>achieved. I think this can be shown definitely through
>>>>>>>casting, but also
>>>>>>>through the casting analyzer which measures those variables.
>>>>>>>Of course it is
>>>>>>>possible to cast 40 feet with with no actual stop and a very
>>>>>>>long decelerationa
>>>>>>>dn get good results because it is very easy to achieve that
>>>>>>>much power on such a
>>>>>>>short line, but that is not the point of the exercise.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On your second poit that a decleration occurs before a stop.
>>>>>>>Of course that is
>>>>>>>true. I dont think that is a revelation! You have to
>>>>>>>decelerate to stop. A
>>>>>>>car doesnt just cese to move some energy must be put into
>>>>>>>making it slow down
>>>>>>>to a stop. The same is true of the casting arm and fly rod.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>When I mentioned maximum tip velocity below it was a maximum
>>>>>>>tip velocity before
>>>>>>>any sort of deceleration had occured to make the rod unflex.
>>>>>>>Which has to
>>>>>>>happen. There is no cast where a cast is made with no help
>>>>>>>from the fly rod by
>>>>>>>going from a flexed state to an unflexed state. The
>>>>>>>deceleration may be very
>>>>>>>slow and add very little but it still happens.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In the swoop it may all be one fluid motion and it may not
>>>>>>>have a solid stop. But, in order for a RSP to occur a
>>>>>>>deceleration of the hand must occur which
>>>>>>>allows the rod tip a nd fly line to begint overcome the lower
>>>>>>>section of the
>>>>>>>rod and the hand. The hand may not be stopped, or the butt
>>>>>>>for that matter,
>>>>>>>but a deceleration has occured.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>When you say butt, do you mean the very bottom of the rod
>>>>>>>below the hand. I
>>>>>>>know this sounds stupid. But if that is the case then I would
>>>>>>>say that the
>>>>>>>stop is almost imperceptable and we are seeing a follow
>>>>>>>through. Similar to a
>>>>>>>motion in a drift. I think this happens almost every great
>>>>>>>casters cast. However, a massive deceleration has occured to
>>>>>>>allow the ro to get to RSP then
>>>>>>>a follow through.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>Jeff Wagner
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly
>>>>>>>Fishers
>>>>>>>Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>>>Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>>>Redington Pro Staff
>>>>>>>970-481-5887
>>>>>>>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>www.dhflyfishing.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Quoting Paul Arden <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Hi Jeff,
>>>>>>>>There are a couple of things I don't agree with below:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>" quicker
>>>>>>>>>deceleration means a greater amount of energy would be
>>>>>>>>>transferred more quickly
>>>>>>>>>into the flyline and less of it would be dissipated after
>>>>>>>>>its effectiveness in
>>>>>>>>>the cast."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>How do you see energy being dissipated on a "lazy stop"? And
>>>>>>>>in what form?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"But the
>>>>>>>>>stop IS the point of energy transfer from rod to line and
>>>>>>>>>does impart more
>>>>>>>>>energy into the cast than would be lost from counterflex or
>>>>>>>>>other ineffective
>>>>>>>>>motions associated with the stop when done properly.
>>>>>>>>"
>>>>>>>>When the rod is unbending it is transferring energy from rod
>>>>>>>>to line, this begins
>>>>>>>>when the rod butt is being decelerated/angle of line to rod
>>>>>>>>becomes acute.
>>>>>>>>This *always* occurs prior to butt stop.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"The deceleration would be after a
>>>>>>>>>maximum tip velocity and the inability of the caster to
>>>>>>>>>maintain an
>>>>>>>>>acceleration, an action caused by the caster intentionally
>>>>>>>>>slowing the rod
>>>>>>>>>(stopping) or unintentionally from running out of arm"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Maximum tip velocity occurs at Rod Straight Position which
>>>>>>>>normally
>>>>>>>>occurs after the stop, but in some cases can occur during the
>>>>>>>>stroke
>>>>>>>>(making the stop a non-essential)..
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The swoop stroke I am thinking of, pulls down with no butt
>>>>>>>>rotation,
>>>>>>>>rotates the butt around a fixed point and then drives upward,
>>>>>>>>pointing the rod in the direction of the cast.
>>>>>>>>It's all one fluid motion. RSP occurs before butt stop.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I know the recognised theory, Jeff, but I don't think it's
>>>>>>>>complete.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Cheers,
>>>>>>>>Paul
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Wagner"
>>>>>>>><jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>Cc: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 4:49 AM
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: STOP?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Paul,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>A minor point. You can have a stopless cast. But every
>>>>>>>>>cast has a
>>>>>>>>>deceleration. even if that deceleration is over a long
>>>>>>>>>period of time or large
>>>>>>>>>distance.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>IF I understand your description properly there is still a
>>>>>>>>>deceleration in the
>>>>>>>>>rod at the end of the stroke or in this case when 170
>>>>>>>>>degrees is attained. Any
>>>>>>>>>deceleration from a maximum tip velocity will cause the tip
>>>>>>>>>to straighten. And
>>>>>>>>>consequently energy to transfer from the rod to the fly
>>>>>>>>>line. Since it is the
>>>>>>>>>tip that is unbending and has the motion most of the energy
>>>>>>>>>would be expelled
>>>>>>>>>through the tip. The amount of energy that would go into
>>>>>>>>>the cast would depend
>>>>>>>>>on several variables including the time of the deceleration,
>>>>>>>>>a quicker
>>>>>>>>>deceleration means a greater amount of energy would be
>>>>>>>>>transfered more quickly
>>>>>>>>>into the flyline and less of it would be dissipated after
>>>>>>>>>its effectiveness in
>>>>>>>>>the cast. Timing!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>If your debate is when is the rod straightening it is
>>>>>>>>>during/after a
>>>>>>>>>deceleration, not necessarily a stop. The deceleration
>>>>>>>>>would be after a
>>>>>>>>>maximum tip velocity and the inability of the caster to
>>>>>>>>>maintain an
>>>>>>>>>acceleration, an action caused by the caster intentionally
>>>>>>>>>slowing the rod
>>>>>>>>>(stopping) or unintentionally from running out of arm. Both
>>>>>>>>>have a
>>>>>>>>>deceleration. I would call attention to Steve Rajeff and
>>>>>>>>>other tournament
>>>>>>>>>style casters where the the stop is the defining mark
>>>>>>>>>between a good caster and
>>>>>>>>>great caster. Again, timing of the release would have
>>>>>>>>>something to do with this
>>>>>>>>>but also energy transfer. A longer stop has more time to
>>>>>>>>>transfer energy and
>>>>>>>>>losing its effective timing.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>If you are contending that the majority of the energy has
>>>>>>>>>been transfered before
>>>>>>>>>the stop. I would say that definitely some of the energy
>>>>>>>>>has been imparted to
>>>>>>>>>the rod as the line is pulled through the air, if this were
>>>>>>>>>not the case the
>>>>>>>>>line would not be moving. Once the line is in motion it
>>>>>>>>>will continue at the
>>>>>>>>>speed of the tip, decreasing after energy is no longer being
>>>>>>>>>imparted to the
>>>>>>>>>line in which case it is effected by gravity, air
>>>>>>>>>resistance, etc. But the
>>>>>>>>>stop IS the point of energy transfer from rod to line and
>>>>>>>>>does impart more
>>>>>>>>>energy into the cast than would be lost from counterflex or
>>>>>>>>>other ineffective
>>>>>>>>>motions associated with the stop when done properly.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>As for the swoop. I dont doubt that it can be a very
>>>>>>>>>effective technique. However, that doesnt mean anything
>>>>>>>>>about the rod not stopping or decelerating. If we are using
>>>>>>>>>the same term for swoop, meaning a dipped down path to the
>>>>>>>>>hand
>>>>>>>>>in the middle of the stroke to ensure a straight path to the
>>>>>>>>>tip of the rod. A
>>>>>>>>>maximum deceleration would occur at the end of the stroke
>>>>>>>>>and energy transfered
>>>>>>>>>to the fly line. I dont think that this is the most
>>>>>>>>>effective technique as it
>>>>>>>>>means less bend in the rod is happening than for a caster
>>>>>>>>>that is moving the
>>>>>>>>>hand in a arcing motion or even a straight line (if both
>>>>>>>>>casters are using the
>>>>>>>>>same rod and similar stroke length). But, if it works for
>>>>>>>>>the guy who cares.
>>>>>>>>>As I said in an earlier e-mail style is very individual and
>>>>>>>>>there is more than
>>>>>>>>>one to get the job done. I have been told recently that my
>>>>>>>>>style is not
>>>>>>>>>appropriate either but I get decent results. Just not in
>>>>>>>>>pesky comps!!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I think I understand your discussion. The way I would break
>>>>>>>>>it down would be in
>>>>>>>>>two parts. The old lever and spring concept (lever and
>>>>>>>>>flexiable lever).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>1. Lever (non-flexiable as an example) energy is imparted
>>>>>>>>>directly to the line
>>>>>>>>>as the line is pulled through the air. The line will
>>>>>>>>>continue regarless of
>>>>>>>>>stop. The line will keep moving only slowing as the line is
>>>>>>>>>acted on by air
>>>>>>>>>resistance, friction, etc. This could happen regarless of
>>>>>>>>>the means of the
>>>>>>>>>line being pulled, this is true since a flexed rod as it
>>>>>>>>>moves through the air
>>>>>>>>>is being flexed and is for this purpose not moving. The
>>>>>>>>>same could be true for
>>>>>>>>>a broomstick or even hand casting.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>2. Spring. The point where the flexiable lever, the rod,
>>>>>>>>>is unflexing and
>>>>>>>>>transfering the energy to fly line, propelling it forward.
>>>>>>>>>The rod must flex
>>>>>>>>>and unflex to do this. I think this can be shown to be very
>>>>>>>>>effective by
>>>>>>>>>having a flexed lever and unflexable lever cast next to each
>>>>>>>>>other. The
>>>>>>>>>efficiency of the flexiable lever imparting energy to the
>>>>>>>>>fly line depends on
>>>>>>>>>many factors is effecient enough to have a net increase in
>>>>>>>>>energy.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Let me know if I am missing your point.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>>>Jeff Wagner
>>>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>>>Jeff Wagner
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly
>>>>>>>>>Fishers
>>>>>>>>>Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>>>>>Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>>>>>Redington Pro Staff
>>>>>>>>>970-481-5887
>>>>>>>>>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>www.dhflyfishing.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Quoting Paul Arden <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Hi Jeff,
>>>>>>>>>>my thoughts on this is that in a 170 degree "stopless" arc
>>>>>>>>>>the rod will
>>>>>>>>>>straighten as theangle between the flyline and the rod butt
>>>>>>>>>>becomes acute.
>>>>>>>>>>The loop is still top pointed so I assume this to be true.
>>>>>>>>>>The energy
>>>>>>>>>>stored in the bend rod has to go somewhere, either through
>>>>>>>>>>the tip
>>>>>>>>>>or through the butt. If you're rotating the rod through 170
>>>>>>>>>>while it's
>>>>>>>>>>unbending the energy is going to go through the tip without
>>>>>>>>>>the need
>>>>>>>>>>for an abrupt stop. At least this is what I *think* is
>>>>>>>>>>happening.
>>>>>>>>>>What we really need is a high speed camera. I hope to have
>>>>>>>>>>access to one
>>>>>>>>>>before I leave NZ.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Incidentally I know of a Spanish distance caster who uses
>>>>>>>>>>the swoop to
>>>>>>>>>>cast into the mid 120s.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>Paul
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Jeff....
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>You bring up some interesting points.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>I'll pass this on to the Group with the suggestion that it
>>>>>>>>>>>may help to print this out and study it at leisure. There
>>>>>>>>>>>is a lot of thought going into this message.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Gordy
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>> From: Jeff Wagner <jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> To: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: STOP?
>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 22:49:34 -0700
>>>>>>>>>>> Gordy,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This thread is very interesting. Hope you dont mind if I
>>>>>>>>>>>put in a word.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I agree with Paul on a a few issues and you on others.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> When casting, any speed that is directly applied to the
>>>>>>>>>>>rod is also applied to
>>>>>>>>>>> the fly line. In which case the line will continue
>>>>>>>>>>>forward whether the rod
>>>>>>>>>>> stops or slows or just gets out of the way. We can see
>>>>>>>>>>>this when we do a
>>>>>>>>>>> thrust cast as paul notes. However is this the most
>>>>>>>>>>>efficient cast? I will
>>>>>>>>>>> suggest no, and state that it is possible to perform
>>>>>>>>>>>this cast with an
>>>>>>>>>>> unflexible lever by simply slinging the line. Any more
>>>>>>>>>>>distance is achieved by
>>>>>>>>>>> the energy imparted to the fly line by the flexing
>>>>>>>>>>>(unflexing) of a fly rod.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> However, energy from the cast by a fly rod is imparted
>>>>>>>>>>>at some point in the
>>>>>>>>>>> cast. Where? It can only be during a deceleration after
>>>>>>>>>>>a maximum velocity is
>>>>>>>>>>> achieved. In other words for the distance caster after
>>>>>>>>>>>the loading move the
>>>>>>>>>>> speed up and the wrist flip we achieve maximum velocity.
>>>>>>>>>>>At this point we
>>>>>>>>>>> could maintain this velocity however we usually run out
>>>>>>>>>>>of arm. In which case
>>>>>>>>>>> we decelerate and the rod unflexs and imparts energy
>>>>>>>>>>>into the fly line. Again
>>>>>>>>>>> evidence for this can be seen in casting a unflexible
>>>>>>>>>>>lever versus casting a
>>>>>>>>>>> fly rod. We cast farther with a fly rod.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The rate of deceleration I think is the key. As can be
>>>>>>>>>>>seen in Bruce's fly
>>>>>>>>>>> casting analyzer. The faster the deceleration the more
>>>>>>>>>>>quickly the energy is
>>>>>>>>>>> transfered to the rod and the more efficient the energy
>>>>>>>>>>>transfer is as the
>>>>>>>>>>> energy is not wasted over a long period of time. This
>>>>>>>>>>>quick deceleration is
>>>>>>>>>>> the difference between great casters like Rajeff and a
>>>>>>>>>>>beginner cast.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As you and Jeff noted it is possible to make to abrupt
>>>>>>>>>>>of a stop without taking
>>>>>>>>>>> proper measures and shock the rod. However if you watch
>>>>>>>>>>>Rajeff and others like
>>>>>>>>>>> him they do take measures after a VERY abrupt stop often
>>>>>>>>>>>tilting the tip of the
>>>>>>>>>>> rod down and lifting the butt of the rod up (usually
>>>>>>>>>>>with very stiff rods that
>>>>>>>>>>> rebound very quickly) to move the tip of the rod out of
>>>>>>>>>>>the way of the oncoming
>>>>>>>>>>> fly line. An action needed because of the abrupt stop
>>>>>>>>>>>teamed with a very narrow
>>>>>>>>>>> casting arc.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I have attemped to demonstrate this when casting. I will
>>>>>>>>>>>first carry a good
>>>>>>>>>>> amount of line and on the final forward stroke continue
>>>>>>>>>>>forward and lay the rod
>>>>>>>>>>> down without really stopping the rod, simply continuing
>>>>>>>>>>>the motion only changing
>>>>>>>>>>> direction toward the ground with the rod while the fly
>>>>>>>>>>>line continues to unroll.
>>>>>>>>>>> Second, I cast normal and stop the rod abruptly causing
>>>>>>>>>>>counterflex in the rod.
>>>>>>>>>>> The normal casts with a stop and subsuquently a
>>>>>>>>>>>counterflex always go farther. The cast which has no
>>>>>>>>>>>defined stop as in a thrust cast still has a deceleration
>>>>>>>>>>> and energy transfered to the fly line this is
>>>>>>>>>>>unavoidable as the rod
>>>>>>>>>>> straightens. However, a very long deceleration or lack
>>>>>>>>>>>of a stop as we are
>>>>>>>>>>> calling it here would transfer less energy.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> i would also note that at the veolcity reached by many
>>>>>>>>>>>great distance casters it
>>>>>>>>>>> may be very difficult to bring the rod to a full
>>>>>>>>>>>instantaneous stop. Instead
>>>>>>>>>>> the rod would continue forward and actually soften the
>>>>>>>>>>>stop slightly.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Still a defined quick deceleration of the rod after
>>>>>>>>>>>maximum velocity of the tip
>>>>>>>>>>> will offer the best transfer of energy, the best case
>>>>>>>>>>>scenario for distance
>>>>>>>>>>> casting.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>> Jeff Wagner
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of
>>>>>>>>>>>Fly Fishers
>>>>>>>>>>> Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>>>>>>> Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>>>>>>> Redington Pro Staff
>>>>>>>>>>> 970-481-5887
>>>>>>>>>>> jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>> www.dhflyfishing.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Quoting Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > Paul... We are getting a little complicated for many
>>>>>>>>>>>in our
>>>>>>>>>>> >Group, here. My brief comments in your text in BOLD
>>>>>>>>>>>CAPS. > >Gordy
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >-------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> > From: /"Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>/
>>>>>>>>>>> >Reply-To: /"Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>/
>>>>>>>>>>> >To: /"Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>/
>>>>>>>>>>> >Subject: /Re: Actual demo of ESSENTIALS/
>>>>>>>>>>> >Date: /Fri, 13 Jan 2006 23:32:15 -0000/
>>>>>>>>>>> >Hi Gordy,
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >The reason I'd like to see casting arc included in (3)
>>>>>>>>>>>is because it >deals with progressive
>>>>>>>>>>> >rod bending and is quite specific. It's possible to
>>>>>>>>>>>make a long cast >a short stroke length,
>>>>>>>>>>> >underhand casting styles for example. Bruce Richards
>>>>>>>>>>>reckons drag
>>>>>>>>>>> >[translational rod movement
>>>>>>>>>>> >pre-butt rotation] removes slack, Bill Gammel thinks it
>>>>>>>>>>>removes sag, >I think it adds Kinetic
>>>>>>>>>>> >Energy. It probably does all three. But I don't think
>>>>>>>>>>>increasing
>>>>>>>>>>> >stroke length is an essential
>>>>>>>>>>> >whereas widening the casting arc most certainly is. I
>>>>>>>>>>>AGREE THAT,
>>>>>>>>>>> >\"STROKE LENGTH\" DOESN'T COVER IT ALL. AS I LOOK AT IT
>>>>>>>>>>>, TIP
>>>>>>>>>>>TRAVEL IS >MOST IMPORTANT......A COMBINATION OF STROKE
>>>>>>>>>>>LENGTH, ROD (CASTING) ARC, >AND ANY OTHER TRANSLATIONAL
>>>>>>>>>>>MOVEMENTS IN THE DIRECTION OF THE CAST. (WE >MUST REMEMBER
>>>>>>>>>>>THAT BACK WHEN THESE WERE WRITTEN, MANY WERE USING THE
>>>>>>>>>>> >TERM, \"STROKE LENGTH\" TO MEAN WHAT
>>>>>>>>>>>WE >NOW CALL, \"TIP TRAVEL\".) PRE-BUTT ROTATION,
>>>>>>>>>>>\"PULL\", \"DRAG\" OR >ANY TRANSLATIONAL MOTION IN THE
>>>>>>>>>>>DIRECTION OF THE CAST PROBABLY
>>>>>>>>>>> >_DOES_ REMOVE SLACK AND SAG AND ADDS KINETIC
>>>>>>>>>>>ENERGY.......ALL
>>>>>>>>>>>THREE (AS >I SEE IT.)
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >(6) is very interesting. Something I teach, is to say
>>>>>>>>>>>"stop harder". >What is someone
>>>>>>>>>>> >doing when they think "stop harder"? Hopefully they're
>>>>>>>>>>>squeezing the >hand, which
>>>>>>>>>>> >results in rotating the butt at the end of the stroke,
>>>>>>>>>>>which is
>>>>>>>>>>> >"proper power application". I THINK YOU ARE RIGHT. FLOYD
>>>>>>>>>>>FRANKE
>>>>>>>>>>>PUTS IT >THIS WAY WHEN HE TEACHES THIS : \"SQUEEZE TO A
>>>>>>>>>>>STOP\". HELPS A LOT WITH >ACCURACY CASTING, TOO.
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >I'd like to say I knew the answer here, but I don't.
>>>>>>>>>>>The argument
>>>>>>>>>>> >for an abrupt
>>>>>>>>>>> >stop is that it gives a more efficient transfer of
>>>>>>>>>>>energy from rod
>>>>>>>>>>> >to line, but on a
>>>>>>>>>>> >170 casting arc I reckon that most of that energy has
>>>>>>>>>>>already been >transferred
>>>>>>>>>>> >before the stop. Where's the stop on a swoop or a
>>>>>>>>>>>thrust, for
>>>>>>>>>>> >example?
>>>>>>>>>>> >If it's at the end of thrust the rod's hit RSP,
>>>>>>>>>>>energy's been
>>>>>>>>>>> >transferred and you may as
>>>>>>>>>>> >well drop the rod. YES. THIS IS GROUND UPON WHICH FEW
>>>>>>>>>>>DARE TO TROD >!.......WE RISK BEING CALLED HERETICS. ON
>>>>>>>>>>>THE SO-CALLED, \"THRUST
>>>>>>>>>>> >CAST\" AS WELL AS THE, \"SWOOP\" IT DOES APPEAR THAT
>>>>>>>>>>>YOU'VE
>>>>>>>>>>>ALREADY >GONE PAST RSP. HERE, THE TRUE STOP IS WHEN, \"YOU
>>>>>>>>>>>RUN OUT OF ARM\". OF >COURSE THE ROD IS STRAIGHT AT THE
>>>>>>>>>>>END OF THE THRUST.....BUT THAT MAY >HAVE OCCURRED A SPLIT
>>>>>>>>>>>SECOND EARLIER. I'VE SEEN LEFTY DEMO THIS AND >LITERALLY
>>>>>>>>>>>DROP THE ROD ON THE GROUND AFTER THE THRUST. THE LOOP
>>>>>>>>>>>SHOOTS >OUT WITH TREMENDOUS SPEED AND ITS DIRECTION IS
>>>>>>>>>>>UNCHANGED. BEST NOT TO >TEACH THAT THRUST WIND CAST EXCEPT
>>>>>>>>>>>TO ADVANCED CASTERS WHO HAVE ENOUGH
>>>>>>>>>>> >CONTROL TO AVOID ELBOW INJURY.
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >Sorry I know this is not very good teaching for a study
>>>>>>>>>>>group. Some >day we'll
>>>>>>>>>>> >know everything and then we'll try our best to forget
>>>>>>>>>>>it all.
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >Incidentally I find emphasising "power application" as
>>>>>>>>>>>opposed to
>>>>>>>>>>> >"stop" can have
>>>>>>>>>>> >a more positive effect. Just a different way of getting
>>>>>>>>>>>the same
>>>>>>>>>>> >stroke nailed. I HOPE WE NEVER DO KNOW EVERYTHING ! IT
>>>>>>>>>>>WOULD BE
>>>>>>>>>>>LIKE >FINDING THE, \"NEVER-FAIL\" FLY. I DO SO LOVE
>>>>>>>>>>>GETTING INTO SUPER >DETAIL....BUT I DON'T WANT OUR GROUP
>>>>>>>>>>>TO LOSE SIGHT OF THE FOREST FOR >SAKE OF TOO MANY TREES.
>>>>>>>>>>> > GORDY
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>> >Paul
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >PS I can't believe Tip Travel has already been
>>>>>>>>>>>invented; we'll have >to come
>>>>>>>>>>> >up with something different.
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >PPS I shouldn't have eaten beans last night.
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 7:13 PM
>>>>>>>>>>> >Subject: Re: Actual demo of ESSENTIALS
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >>Paul....
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>Interesting points.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>On 3.)....."Short cast: short stroke, Long cast: long
>>>>>>>>>>>stroke" is,
>>>>>>>>>>> >>as we both know, a gross oversimplification. For the
>>>>>>>>>>>long >>cast,
>>>>>>>>>>>we >>need a long distance travel for the rod tip. We don't
>>>>>>>>>>>need it for the >>short cast. Of course, this is tip
>>>>>>>>>>>travel is produced by the >>combination of many things,
>>>>>>>>>>>including rod arc (casting arc),
>>>>>>>>>>>stroke >>length (as defined by the distance moved by the
>>>>>>>>>>>hand) and, with >>very long casts, the caster's body
>>>>>>>>>>>motion. Even a step forward >>during the delivery stroke
>>>>>>>>>>>adds to that tip travel.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>(Incidentally, the first reference in the casting
>>>>>>>>>>>literature I
>>>>>>>>>>> >>could find was in J.C. Mottram's book, FLY CASTING,
>>>>>>>>>>>originally >>published in 1921. So the term is a
>>>>>>>>>>>resurrection not a new
>>>>>>>>>>>coining.)
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>On 6.) One can have a whimpy stop (a mush) and still
>>>>>>>>>>>get the fly
>>>>>>>>>>> >>out there on target......but is that the most efficient
>>>>>>>>>>>way to
>>>>>>>>>>>do it >>?......I think not.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>I simply can't make anywhere near the distance on my
>>>>>>>>>>>distance cast >>with a soft stop. Just can't do it !
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>You call attention to the concept of crisp application
>>>>>>>>>>>of power.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>Now if we have that anywhere in the stroke except in
>>>>>>>>>>>juxtaposition to >>the stop, we have a spike of
>>>>>>>>>>>power.......high liklihood of a tailing >>loop.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>Having said that, I realize fully that there are many
>>>>>>>>>>>casts which
>>>>>>>>>>> >>are done well with hardly a stop, or even no real stop.
>>>>>>>>>>>These
>>>>>>>>>>>include >>certain curve casts such as the corkscrew cast,
>>>>>>>>>>>the helicopter cast, >>and other decelerating curve
>>>>>>>>>>>casts....in fact,
>>>>>>>>>>>any >>purposely decelerated cast. It certainly includes
>>>>>>>>>>>the, "no stop" of >>the back cast during what has been
>>>>>>>>>>>called the, "European continuous >>tension cast" as well
>>>>>>>>>>>as other elliptical casts including the >>so-called,
>>>>>>>>>>>"Belgian cast".
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>As I happen to look at it, a crisp stop is an
>>>>>>>>>>>essential for
>>>>>>>>>>> >>so-labelled, "straight line overhead casting"......NOT
>>>>>>>>>>>ALL
>>>>>>>>>>>CASTING, >>BY ANY MEANS. If we look at it that way, you
>>>>>>>>>>>are absolutely >>CORRECT.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>Gordy
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>> >>From: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>Reply-To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>To: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>Subject: Re: Actual demo of ESSENTIALS
>>>>>>>>>>> >>Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 05:19:38 -0000
>>>>>>>>>>> >>Hi Gordy,
>>>>>>>>>>> >>I've been thinking about the essentials listed below
>>>>>>>>>>>and I don't
>>>>>>>>>>> >>agree that [6] is an essential.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>I think what's really happening when a caster is
>>>>>>>>>>>thinking about
>>>>>>>>>>> >>making an abrupt stop
>>>>>>>>>>> >>is that he's really making a crisp power application
>>>>>>>>>>>[5]. There are >>quite a few "stopless" casting styles
>>>>>>>>>>> >>including the TLT and Austrian style - which as you
>>>>>>>>>>>know is how
>>>>>>>>>>> >>most Continental Europeans cast.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>I know that runs contrary to much of what we teach but
>>>>>>>>>>>many
>>>>>>>>>>> >>distance casters don't use an
>>>>>>>>>>> >>abrupt stop either but integrate drift/swoop into
>>>>>>>>>>>their stroke. I >>just sort of flop the rod over
>>>>>>>>>>> >>and hope.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>I used to think that the stop was the most important
>>>>>>>>>>>thing in
>>>>>>>>>>> >>flycasting, I now think it restricts
>>>>>>>>>>> >>distance.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>I think [3] should be or include proper casting arc.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>I hope you're getting some good fishing.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>> >>Paul
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >> > Group...
>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >> > Following a suggestion by Molly Semenik, I have one
>>>>>>>>>>>more >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >question on the 5 (or 6) ESSENTIALS.
>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >> > In your own words, describe what you would do to
>>>>>>>>>>>demonstrate
>>>>>>>>>>> >> >clearly to a group of fly casting students, each
>>>>>>>>>>>essential.
>>>>>>>>>>>You may >> >use a fly outfit or any other teaching prop
>>>>>>>>>>>or tool.
>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >> > 1.) Straight Line Path of Rod Tip - I have a short
>>>>>>>>>>>(one foot)
>>>>>>>>>>> >> >section of a rod tip complete with tip top guide. It
>>>>>>>>>>> >> enables
>>>>>>>>>>>me to >> >hold the short section up to eye level and
>>>>>>>>>>>while moving it
>>>>>>>>>>>back >>and >forth as per casting strokes, I can use the
>>>>>>>>>>>other hand to >>clearly >demonstrate the straight line
>>>>>>>>>>>path by accompanying the rod >>tip with >the flat palm
>>>>>>>>>>>of my other hand.
>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >> > 2.) Eliminate Slack - When teaching, I always
>>>>>>>>>>>stress this very
>>>>>>>>>>> >> >early in the lesson. I have always liked and used
>>>>>>>>>>>Lefty's >> way
>>>>>>>>>>>of >> >putting this. With the line laying out about 30'
>>>>>>>>>>>with a bit of >> >slack, he points to the fly and leader
>>>>>>>>>>>and states: "Ain't nothing >> >gonna happen until that
>>>>>>>>>>>fly starts to move." After stating that >> >fact, I
>>>>>>>>>>>demonstrate how much of the back stroke is wasted pulling
>>>>>>>>>>> >> >out slack that was not removed. I also, to indicate
>>>>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>>>> >>uselessness
>>>>>>>>>>> >of slack in casting and to interject a little levity
>>>>>>>>>>> >>as a
>>>>>>>>>>>bit of an >ice breaker, use the analogy of a drunk
>>>>>>>>>>>pulling a
>>>>>>>>>>> >>chain down the
>>>>>>>>>>> >street, when asked by a very proper lady, why he is
>>>>>>>>>>> >>pulling
>>>>>>>>>>>a chain, >he replies, "Lady, did you ever try pushing one
>>>>>>>>>>> >>of these things?"
>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >> > 3.) Short Line - Short Stroke, Long Line - Long
>>>>>>>>>>>Stroke - I use
>>>>>>>>>>> >> >analogies here also. To indicate proper stroke
>>>>>>>>>>>length, I
>>>>>>>>>>>pantomine >> >throwing a line-drive baseball, which
>>>>>>>>>>>requires a short straight line >> >throw/stroke for a
>>>>>>>>>>>close throw and a longer
>>>>>>>>>>>straight >>stroke for a >longer ball. I also have the
>>>>>>>>>>>student watch the rod as >>I make longer >strokes while
>>>>>>>>>>>adding line.
>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >> > 4.) Pause - I like to use the term -Timely Pause -
>>>>>>>>>>>With >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >beginners I try to have them temporarily adapt to a 90%
>>>>>>>>>>>stance
>>>>>>>>>>> >>and >watch their back cast straighten (almost
>>>>>>>>>>>straighten). >>This
>>>>>>>>>>>has >>a >dual-fold purpose, as it allows them to see the
>>>>>>>>>>>line trajectory >>and >often helps to keep their back
>>>>>>>>>>>casts up where they belong. If >>the >individual has
>>>>>>>>>>>trouble watching their back cast, I revert >>again to >one
>>>>>>>>>>>of Lefty's old methods. I ask them where they are >>from,
>>>>>>>>>>>and I >instruct them to make a back cast while pausing
>>>>>>>>>>>long
>>>>>>>>>>> >>enough to state
>>>>>>>>>>> >their name and where they are from. It works like >>a
>>>>>>>>>>>charm
>>>>>>>>>>>on a 30' >cast.
>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >> > 5.) Proper Application of Power. - When explaining
>>>>>>>>>>>power and
>>>>>>>>>>> >> >how to apply it, I have started to use a term that I
>>>>>>>>>>>believe >> >our
>>>>>>>>>>> >>own >Gordy has coined, and that is "An accelerated
>>>>>>>>>>> >>acceleration
>>>>>>>>>>>to a >> >stop", I have never heard it explained better.
>>>>>>>>>>>For this all >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >important step I also use hands on guidance with
>>>>>>>>>>>permission.
>>>>>>>>>>> >>There >are many analogies for this also, such as
>>>>>>>>>>>driving in >>low
>>>>>>>>>>>gear >>then >shifting to second and finally high.
>>>>>>>>>>> >> > 6.) Abrupt Stop - When trying to explain the
>>>>>>>>>>>importance of the
>>>>>>>>>>> >> >stop, I allude to the elite distance caster's (Steve
>>>>>>>>>>> >> Rajeff)
>>>>>>>>>>>words, >> >when he was asked: What do the best casters do
>>>>>>>>>>>that
>>>>>>>>>>>other's >>fail to >do? And he replied; "They stop the
>>>>>>>>>>>rod." As to
>>>>>>>>>>> >>demonstrating this, I >again like to, with permission
>>>>>>>>>>>of
>>>>>>>>>>>course, use >>hands on. It is a >wonderful way to have
>>>>>>>>>>>the student actually feel >>the abruptness of >the
>>>>>>>>>>>required stop. Here again there are many visual >>aids we
>>>>>>>>>>>can >apply, throwing water at a wall off of a paint brush,
>>>>>>>>>>> >>slinging an
>>>>>>>>>>> >apple from a dowel rod and so on.
>>>>>>>>>>> >> > Since I have a plethora of beginners here in the
>>>>>>>>>>>Catskills, I
>>>>>>>>>>> >> >have printed out little cards (laminated) with the
>>>>>>>>>>>essentials >> listed >and hand them out at the end of a
>>>>>>>>>>>one day lesson. I
>>>>>>>>>>>tell >> them to put >them in their wallet or purse and
>>>>>>>>>>>refer to them if >> necessary when >they are practicing,
>>>>>>>>>>>and then I always add; "You
>>>>>>>>>>>do >>plan to >practice, don't you?"
>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
> >>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>