ol Al...
Sure...whatever works.
Using, "opening" and "closing" to mean the angle between the rod butt and the forearm would work fine......but then we have to teach it that way.
In Joan Wulff's school for instructors, she actually did just that.....and went even further as she recommended the specific angle of 45 degrees between the rod butt and the forearm for the position at the end of the back stroke, prior to any drift. She also made clear, that there would be variations depending upon style and various other types of casts.
Gordy
From: "Allen Crise" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: "ol Al" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>,"jerry Puckett" <jerry puckett [jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx]>,"Harvey Harris" <Hlhpc@xxxxxxx>,"Troy Miller" <Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"david Bradley" <dallasflyfisher@xxxxxxxxx>,"john Deardorff" <jdeardorff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Steve Barlow" <steve.barlow1@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"Stacy Trimble" <stacytrimble@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Raye Carrington" <raye@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"cindy Alexander" <calex75773@xxxxxxxxx>,"Clay Roberts" <CRoberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"dave Speer" <dave@xxxxxxxxx>,"Don DeRidder" <ddr125@xxxxxxx>,"Gary Wood" <brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx>,"Harry Boyd" <maker@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,"James Russell" <jrussell1128@xxxxxxxxx>,"james Parker" <james.parker3@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"Ken Cole" <ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"LC Clower" <lcclower@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"Matt Wilhem" <educate@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Ron Allen Thomas" <koolfly1@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"Steve Hollensed" <stevehollensed@xxxxxxxxxx>,"Jerry Puckett" <jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx>,"keith Richard" <KRichard@xxxxxxx>,"gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>,"Dale Connally" <Dale_Connally@xxxxxxxxxx>,"John Till" <till@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Rusty dunn" <caandu@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"jeff jackson" <tjjackson3@xxxxxxxxx>,"Marshall Lasswell" <mlasswell@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Dennis Burns" <Dennis.Burns@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Sonny Hinojosa" <csonnyh@xxxxxxxxx>,"Travis Burt" <tburt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Gary Eaton" <geaton@xxxxxxx>,"Wes Hodgson" <fifasoccer@xxxxxxx>
CC: "Floyd Franke" <ephemera@xxxxxxx>
Subject: FW: FW: FW: Wristing
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2006 13:19:02 -0600
Howdy Gary & Gordy,
More on this running tread start at the bottom.
You did list some great reasons we should rename the rotation of the wrist
used during casting.
I agree that all the medical types would know just what you are talking
about. The rest of us ''Casting junkies" might be a little lost at first. I
can bet the 12-17 year old would not know their radius from the end of
humors.
Funnybone works just fine.
As the Devil's advocate I am at ease with common names that anyone can use.
Why change. We ALL know what is used to make the cast we rotate the rod.
Forward cast 'closes' the distance between the wrist and rod butt. backcast
'opens' the distance between the rod butt and wrist. This rotation of the
butt of the rod is the angle of the ARC.
Gordy.
That pinky and thumb deviation might work. less words and easy to picture
not having to open the arm to find out that the bones are not labeled.....
Yes I am grinning....
ol Al
Allen Crise FFF Master Casting Instructor
SOC VP of Education
Hawk Ridge Flycasting School
2508 A County Road 1011
Glen Rose, TX 76043
254-897-2045
geocities.com/rrdoctor
flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx
-----Original Message-----
From: geaton@xxxxxxx [mailto:geaton@xxxxxxx]
Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 12:52 PM
To: flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: FW: FW: Wristing
Al,
I appreciate that we are having this discussion. I respect the opinions
and do not wish to overly complicate the art. Ultimately, going directly
to the proper biomechanical terms is the simplest. The following are my
reasons:
1. There is no argument in biomechanics about the accepted terminology.
2. The proper terminology is inherently the most accurate.
3. Accuracy decreases interpretive language that leads to confusion.
4. Being less confusing increases inter & intra professional communication.
5. Professionalism enhances the legitimacy of being valued for our work.
6. Expecting professional communication, ethical behavior & biomechanical
terminology enhances the quality of what we do.
Having stated my case, I have no argument with interchangeable terms like
"5th finger side" and "thumb side" with ulnar and radial deviation. We
abbreviate SLP & RSP only after we clearly understand their meaning and
action. However, we all try to limit the jargon of specialty communication
to avoid becoming too isolated from the mainstream. By applying correct
biomechanical terms we seize the chance to be included with hand
therapists, physical therapists, recreational therapists, medical
practitioners, research scientists, athletic trainers, etc. This only
elevates our potential to be respected as professionals. This terminology
is based upon Latin names for structures that is already international and
universal.
Thank you for receiving my comments. I know the question is coming so I
will reveal that I have two doctorates, two board certifications and am
also an interventional physician with primary training in biomechanical
principles.
Gary Eaton
> Howdy Gang and Gary,
> Start at the bottom message and check Gary's reply then Gordy's reply.
> Pinky Side/Thumb Side Love it....
> ol Al
>
> Allen Crise FFF Master Casting Instructor
> SOC VP of Education
> Hawk Ridge Flycasting School
> 2508 A County Road 1011
> Glen Rose, TX 76043
> 254-897-2045
> geocities.com/rrdoctor
> flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gordon Hill [mailto:hillshead@xxxxxxx]
> Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2006 9:00 AM
> To: flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx; sobbobfish@xxxxxxx; rtab@xxxxxxx;
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> Subject: RE: FW: Wristing
>
>
> ol Al....
>
> Gary is absolutely correct in his description of ulnar deviation and
> radial deviation.
>
> These are much better terms than , "open" and "closed" positions of the
> wrist which to me as an orthopaedic surgeon are more descriptive of
> flexion and extension.
>
> Again, the problem of understanding emerges, for few casters are likely
> to know these true anatomical terms.
>
> Perhaps something like, "thumbward deviation" or, "pinky finger
> deviation" would get the point across without having to teach strictly
> correct anatomic terms as we teach fly casting.
>
> Gordy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> --
> From: "Allen Crise" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>
> To: "gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
> Subject: FW: Wristing
> Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2006 20:41:19 -0600
> Howdy Gordy
> OK Doc.
>
> Allen Crise FFF Master Casting Instructor
> SOC VP of Education
> Hawk Ridge Flycasting School
> 2508 A County Road 1011
> Glen Rose, TX 76043
> 254-897-2045
> geocities.com/rrdoctor
> flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: geaton@xxxxxxx [mailto:geaton@xxxxxxx]
> Sent: Saturday, January 21, 2006 8:30 PM
> To: flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Wristing
>
>
> Allen,
>
> I suspect I teach more health care types because I live in the second
> highest physician density (behind Rochester, MN) in the U.S. The
> correct anatomical description for "wrist closing" is "ulnar
> deviation" named after the forearm bone on the pinky finger side of
> the hand, the ulna. The opposite is "radial deviation" named after the
> forearm bone on the thumb side of the hand, the radius. Since we are
> describing an arc, the word deviation could reasonably be changed to
> "rotation". This proper application of anatomic terminology seems
> easier and more universal than the terms closing or opening.
>
> As an example the backcast in Joan Wulff's video is "radial rotation"
> and the forward cast is "ulnar rotation". If we adopt the standard
> terminology of anatomy and athletics, we help our sport mesh with the
> sciences. Nobody disputes application of physics to casting or biology
> to fishing. Why not apply anatomy to the physical biomechanics of our
> art?
>
> Gary
>
> > Howdy Gang,
> > This I sent out to some of you early this week. Went one of the
> other sites
> > was discussion on stops and wristing.
> >
> > Let me step in here and let you in on something.
> > Rotation of the wrist in the direction of the cast will give you a
> greater ARC. Moving the wrist/hand forward and backward will give
> you stroke. The combination of the two, arc and stroke, will give
> you Tip Travel.
> > The old way of teaching fly casting was to hold the wrist stiff.
> Guess what
> > that give you no ARC
> > If you can watch a Joan Wulff tape on casting She uses the terms
> opening
> > and closing the Wrist. Yea she teaches Wristing. It is where the
> rotation happens that makes it work.
> > Stroke comes first then the rotation. You might say big muscles of
> the shoulder and arm get it moving,.Then the smaller muscles of the
> wrist give it the speed. This rotation or turn over of the rod we
> measure at the Reel seat or butt of the rod in degrees of arc.
> > Short cast small stroke small arc.
> > Long cast long stroke large arc.
> > If you can not find a Joan Tape let me know.
> > Allen Crise FFF Master Casting Instructor
> > SOC VP of Education
> > Hawk Ridge Flycasting School
> > 2508 A County Road 1011
> > Glen Rose, TX 76043
> > 254-897-2045
> > geocities.com/rrdoctor
> > flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx