ol Al....
I think TAM is correct. When I teach the term, "ARC" to early students, I can't help but think of them imagining a dome shaped convex path of the rod tip as being the way to go......for that reason, in my own teachings, I prefer to use the words, "CASTING ANGLE".
At the same time, as they advance, they need to know how others use these terms so I introduce it then with an explanation.
On p. 35 of Jason Borger's book, THE NATURE OF FLY CASTING... , Jason goes into that very discussion.
Mac Brown, on page 78 of his book, CASTING ANGLES, discusses what he terms, "Rod Arc Angle"......a term which I think might well be even more confusing to students.
If you look at it in geometric terms, the change in the angular position of the rod butt section from the beginning to the end of the cast could be expressed as the length of the chord subtending that angle or arc......but only if we were dealing with a non-bending imaginary rod. The length of that chord would vary dramatically depending upon where on the rod it was measured, and would be a capricious value if measured anywhere on the bent sections of a rod........even with the stiff rod, it would depend upon it's length. Not usable unless we measured it with a standard length rod from the tip position at the beginning RSP to the end RSP.
In summary:
1.) The term "casting arc" can be misleading....but is so firmly ensconced in fly casting literature that I think an understanding of what is meant is easier than its elimination.
2.) The term, "casting angle", is much easier to understand (in my opinion).
Gordy
From: "Allen Crise" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Rod Henderson" <roderickmpt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Jerry Puckett" <jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx>,"Ron Mc Quary" <codyfly@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Wes Hodgson" <fifasoccer@xxxxxxx>,"Gary Eaton" <geaton@xxxxxxx>,"Travis Burt" <tburt@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Sonny Hinojosa" <csonnyh@xxxxxxxxx>,"Dennis Burns" <Dennis.Burns@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Marshall Lasswell" <mlasswell@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"jeff jackson" <tjjackson3@xxxxxxxxx>,"Rusty dunn" <caandu@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"John Till" <till@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Dale Connally" <Dale_Connally@xxxxxxxxxx>,"gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>,"keith Richard" <KRichard@xxxxxxx>,"Steve Hollensed" <stevehollensed@xxxxxxxxxx>,"Ron Allen Thomas" <koolfly1@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"Matt Wilhem" <educate@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"LC Clower" <lcclower@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"Ken Cole" <ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"james Parker" <james.parker3@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"James Russell" <jrussell1128@xxxxxxxxx>,"Harry Boyd" <maker@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Gary Wood" <brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx>,"Don DeRidder" <ddr125@xxxxxxx>,"dave Speer" <dave@xxxxxxxxx>,"Clay Roberts" <CRoberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"cindy Alexander" <calex75773@xxxxxxxxx>,"Raye Carrington" <raye@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Stacy Trimble" <stacytrimble@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Steve Barlow" <steve.barlow1@xxxxxxxxxxx>,"john Deardorff" <jdeardorff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"david Bradley" <dallasflyfisher@xxxxxxxxx>,"Troy Miller" <Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,"Harvey Harris" <Hlhpc@xxxxxxx>,"ol Al" <flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: FW: questions
Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 10:13:53 -0600
howdy Group and TroyYou make a good point that we are not looking for ARC or CURVES in our SLP The ARC measured or seen at the rod butt or grip is very necessary to bring Bass or spin caster in to casting. Having them make the rotation at the End of the stroke. This ARC is see at a degree change not a curve of the tip of the rod.GordyCan we have some of your feed back?ol AlAllen Crise FFF Master Casting InstructorSOC VP of EducationHawk Ridge Flycasting School2508 A County Road 1011Glen Rose, TX 76043254-897-2045geocities.com/rrdoctorflysoup@xxxxxxxxxx-----Original Message-----
From: Miller, Troy [mailto:Troy.Miller@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 9:52 AM
To: Allen Crise
Subject: RE: questionsThis WHOLE discussion is the exact reason that I absolutely HATE the term ?casting arc?. I never tell the students that we want to have any sort of casting arc to produce a straight line cast. Arc = Curve in most peoples? minds, so I only talk about arcs when I?m teaching curves. Today?s accepted use of the term casting arc means the change in angle of the rod butt during a casting stroke. But geometrically, an arc is NOT an angle. It?s a curve. Why use a term which needs to be redefined from the way we all have learned the word in 7th grade math??
Regards -- TAM
-----Original Message-----
From: Allen Crise [mailto:flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 9:40 AM
To: Rod Henderson; Jerry Puckett; Ron Mc Quary; Wes Hodgson; Gary Eaton; Travis Burt; Sonny Hinojosa; Dennis Burns; Marshall Lasswell; jeff jackson; Rusty dunn; John Till; Dale Connally; gordon Hill; keith Richard; Steve Hollensed; Ron Allen Thomas; Matt Wilhem; LC Clower; Ken Cole; james Parker; James Russell; Harry Boyd; Gary Wood; Don DeRidder; dave Speer; Clay Roberts; cindy Alexander; Raye Carrington; Stacy Trimble; Steve Barlow; john Deardorff; david Bradley; Miller, Troy; Harvey Harris; ol Al
Subject: FW: questions
one more
Allen Crise FFF Master Casting Instructor
SOC VP of Education
Hawk Ridge Flycasting School
2508 A County Road 1011
Glen Rose, TX 76043
254-897-2045
geocities.com/rrdoctor
flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx
Subject: RE: questionsJerry....
AHAHHH !!!
You just hit a nail on the head.
I, personally, feel that while the path taken by the hand is a good usable and teachable definition for the CASTING STROKE, the essence of that usually somewhat elliptical motion IS its resultant linear path in the direction of the cast.
As with any, "definition" one can poke holes it no matter how it comes out.
If we use the word, "linear", some smart fellow will point out that that path is more elliptical than in a straight line. In the event we leave it out, others will wonder why.
In summary, I think Joan is correct.
Gordy
From: jerry puckett <jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx>
To: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: questions
Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2006 08:08:07 -0800 (PST)Sir Gordon, you should write a book! Just to clear a zone of confusion in my mind would the word "linear" be accurate regarding Joan Wullf's statement, The casting stroke as the linear path taken by the hand during the cast. Would this statement be accurate, the Casting Arc is the path taken by the hand at the rod handle from RSP to RSP? I like this one and Gary and Mollys as well as your answers show some serious thought, thanks to all for making a good learning experience. Jerry
Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx> wrote:Jerry....
Note my comments (BOLD CAPS) in your answer text. Also, take note of my reply to Molly, which will follow.................So far, you and Molly had the most complete and best answers.
Gordy
From: jerry puckett <jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx>
To: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: questions
Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2006 23:51:45 -0800 (PST)
Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx> wrote:Dennis...
We have noted the same thing.....that many of the MCI candidates are not clear on some of these basic terms.
One of the best ways of getting this across, is to come up with a brief "quiz" which will get us thinking.
Gordy
QUIZ:
Let's see how many of you can come up with descriptions for these terms: (Formal definitions not necessary)
1.) Rod plane. The orientation of the rod from vertical or horizontal as it is moved along the casting plane. ( No movement from the vertical and horizontal equals a true SLP. Fly line might crash into the rod tip.) YES. (YOU DON'T NEED THAT LAST STATEMENT, THOUGH TRUE.) REMEMBER, THAT THIS ORIENTATION OF THE ROD CAN BE ON EITHER THE RIGHT OR LEFT SIDE OF THE CASTER.
2.) Line plane. The pathway the line follows during the cast. (determined by the Casting Arc and Casting Stroke.) YES.
3.) Casting plane. The pathway the hand follows back and forth during the cast. 1-3 Jason Borger, "The Nature of Fly Casting" p.37. Parentheses=my comments CAN'T DISAGREE. IN THE PAST, I'VE USED IT AS A SYNONYM FOR LINE PLANE SINCE I EMBRACE JOAN WULFF'S DEFINITION OF THE CASTING STROKE AS THE PATH TAKEN BY THE HAND DURING THE CAST.
4.) Trajectory. The angle above the horizontal plane taken by the line plane to compensate for the effects of gravity and drag. Short cast--short angle, long cast--greater angle degree depending on line speed. Same principle as the path of an arrow. Would this include the vertical plane? YES, IT CAN OCCUR IN ANY PLANE. IN FLY CASTING LITERATURE, THE VERTICAL ROD PLANE IS USED TO DIAGRAM IT, BECAUSE THAT MAKES IT EASIER TO SEE. I LOOK AT TRAJECTORY AS THE SAME AS LINE PLANE. FOR MORE DETAIL, CHECK OUT MY ANSWER COMMENT TO MOLLY.......ALSO, P. 121 OF JOAN WULFF'S BOOK.
5.) SLP. Straight Line Path of the rod tip, required for efficient loop formation. Requires the caster to move the rod tip in a nearly straight line path of the cast. (Virtual Fly casting) YES. IF WE COULD SOMEHOW REALLY HAVE A TRUE SLP OF THE ROD TIP, THERE WOULD OCCUR A COLLISION BETWEEN THE FLY LINE AND THE ROD TIP.....SO IT'S A RELATIVE TERM. OUR BEST, "ELITE" CASTERS ACTUALLY HAVE A VERY SLIGHT CONVEXITY TO THE PATH OF THE ROD TIP. FOR TEACHING PURPOSES, HOWEVER, WE TRY TO ENCOURAGE THE CASTER TO MOVE THE ROD TIP THROUGH THE STRAIGHTEST PATH ACHIEVABLE. (It's not a brand new concept, Jerry.....back when I took my MCI exam, I was asked this question by Bill Gammel.)
6.) RSP. Rod Straight Position. Occurs at the stop of the casting stroke on the back cast and the forward cast. BE CAREFUL WITH THIS. RSP ACTUALLY OCCURS AFTER THE STOP. THE ROD IS STILL BENT WHEN THE HAND STOPS......THEN THERE IS A VERY BRIEF INTERVAL DURING WHICH THE ROD TIP STRAIGHTENS AT RSP. IT IS DURING THIS TIME THAT THE ROD TIP IS MOVING AT ITS GREATEST SPEED. AT RSP, THE FLY LINE CAN OVERTAKE THE ROD TIP, SO THIS IS THE POINT OF LOOP INITIATION.
7.) Counter flex. Occurs at RSP reversing rod direction transferring energy from the back cast to the forward cast and the forward cast to the back cast. YES.....COUNTERFLEX OCCURS IMMEDIATELY AFTER RSP. AT ITS CONCLUSION, WE HAVE REBOUND. I DON'T, HOWEVER, SEE THAT IT TRANSFERS ENERGY FROM THE BACK CAST TO THE FORWARD CAST AND VICE VERSA.
8.) Rebound. At the completion of the cast rod springs back in the opposite direction of the cast. A type of recoil. Exaggerated Example--Firing of Battleship guns. YES. COMING INTO COMMON USAGE IN FLY CASTING JARGON, IT IS A WORD USED TO DENOTE THE, "BOUNCE BACK" OF THE ROD TIP AFTER COUNTERFLEX.
9.) Inertia. Uniformity of motion of a straight line unless acted upon by some external force. See inertia loading and sensing. Jason Borger P. 67-68. YES....ANOTHER WAY OF LOOKING AT IT IS RESISTANCE TO A FORCE. (CHECK OUT MY COMMENTS TO MOLLY)
10.) Tracking. Ideally 180 degree path of the fly line from RSP to RSP, vertically and Horizontally. Involves balanced use of casting essentials. AGREE. I LOOK AT GOOD TRACKING AS SLP IN ALL PLANES.
11.) Drift. Purposeful move of the rod in the direction of the back cast after completion of the stroke. 1- softens rod rebound. 2- helps prevent creep. 3- Lengthens stroke for forward cast. YES. (DOES, INDEED, HELP PREVENT CREEP.
12.) Follow through. The movement of the casting arm and rod, after the power snap (RSP) on the forward cast, a natural continuation of the stroke. Joan Wulff, "Fly Casting Techniques" p. 235 (same benefits as with drift.) AGREE.
Drift and Follow through are basically describing the same movement. So what is the difference between the two terms and motions? Just wondering. BOTH ARE UNPOWERED MOVEMENTS OF THE ROD FOLLOWING COMPLETION OF THE STROKE. EACH IS MOTION OF THE ROD TIP IN THE DIRECTION OF AN UNROLLING LOOP. I HAVE CHOSEN JOAN WULFF'S USE OF THE WORD, "DRIFT" TO REFER TO THE MOTION AFTER THE BACK CAST, WHILE, "FOLLOWTHROUGH" REFERS TO THE MOTION AFTER THE FORWARD STROKE.
Thanks Gordy, that is my best shot for now. I am ready to listen and learn, Jerry Puckett
GORDY
From: "Dennis Grant" <dennisg@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: <dennisg@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Gordy Hill (E-mail)" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: questions
Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2006 10:29:32 -0400Hi Gordy
There are 2 terms which seem to be very confusing for MCI candidates. Lets put them out as questions
define:
1. Rod plane
2. Straight line path (SLP) of the rod tip
Dennis
Insert a catchy tag line here
Dennis Grant
Atlantic Fly Fishing School
tel:
902 673-2590
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