Problem: Back cast loops strike the ground 4

Walter & Group...

[GH] Roy Sedge sends a message on science for the Study Group. I placed it in an attachment.

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[GH] From David Lambert:

gordy:

Re: Bob's Garber's #1 answer. Concave rod tip path? This is not the first time I've heard this description. Is there dissent about concave and convex?

Is it POV issue? I was always taught convex bulged outward toward the center (windshield wiper like movement, which would place the tip moving downward from middle point to stop, directing the line downward); concave was, well, cave-like, and collapsed inward toward the center (which would make the rod tip move upward from the middle point of the cast to the stop, often resulting in a tailer).

David

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[GH] Correction by Bob Garber:

My mistake, I meant convex but what came out was concave. Got to watch that!

Bob

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[GH] Challenge from Tim Lawson :

Hi Gordy,

OK, candidates, you did all these "classic" techniques, but she still doesn't get it. Now what? I think we're still missing at least two great techniques for helping this student.

Tim

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[GH] Tim, Here are a few:

1. In the unusual instance of her "not getting it" despite the use of the methods offered, I'd try the direct hands-on method of casting with her. First, my doing it while she goes along for the ride, then doing it together, and finally having her do it. Repetition as needed.

2. Lefty showed us an effective method of showing where the line will go ... in this case, back and down to the ground. He uses a little light weight plastic bottle, fits it over the tip of an unstrung rod (no line) and has the caster make the cast. In the case of this student, the bottle will go in the direction it was launched as the rod tip traveled back and down. (For casting in any other direction, a string is attached to the bottle so it doesn't end up going off into the next county.)

3. The use of analogies to get the point across. That brings us to Alan Kato's "hammer and nail".

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[GH] From Alan Kato:

Hi Gordy,

Your new student casts with big poorly controlled loops. Her back cast loops strike the ground with each attempt.

1. Likely diagnosis? As long as the student is casting 20-30’ of line and has reasonable timing, she definitely has too large of a casting arc. She probably has too wristy of a stroke. This causes a very wide casting arc and very wide loops.

2. Corrections? Get the student to realize that the back cast arc is too wide and that they should stop the rod pointing more vertically. Casting aids can work however it’s fun if you can get the student to realize his movement without actually seeing it.

I played a game with a 13 year old student at the fishing and hunting day in September. Typically there is only 10-15 minutes to diagnose and fix beginner problems. He had the typical wide loops with a lot of wrist.

I told the kid to imagine hammering a nail into a wall in front of him (standard tactic). If he didn’t stop the hammer he put a hole in the wall. He soon got the idea to stop on the forward stroke and control his wrist. I then had him imagine that there is a window behind his shoulder that will break if he swings the hammer (rod) too far back. This got him to think about what he was doing without seeing it. It became a game where I counted the broken windows. I told him I would count the broken windows and eliminate one when he didn’t break the glass. He went up to 10 and worked it down to zero! He was engaged and felt like he accomplished a lot. His loops were great! In thinking about this afterward I believe he learned to do the clutch stop without telling him!

Alan Kato

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[GH] From Lyth Hartz:

Hi Gordy,

Thanks for these great questions for teaching. I wanted to answer these questions before I read any of the other responses. Without actually witnessing the casting by this student I am certainly speculating about the causes of the problem. With that said, here is what I think might be happening:

The big poorly controlled loops are caused by the path of the rod tip being in a humped or “windshield wiper” path. The striking of the ground on the back cast is caused by the rod tip traveling towards the ground when it stops. (I know it depends, but in this case, I think the line will follow the rod tip.) These problems are quite likely to be caused by any of the following or a combination of the following things:

The casting arc is too wide which is likely to be caused by too much bending of the wrist or the elbow in the casting motion. (Many beginning students only move the rod with an arc rather than a stroke and an arc.)

The Casting stroke is too short or nonexistent which coupled with the wide casting arc will likely result in a humped rod tip path.

There may be too little power application to make the rod bend enough to help the tip travel in a straight line path.

The casting motion for the back cast ends with the rod tip traveling down in the back cast rather than slightly upwards.

Possible Corrections:

The casting student must be sure to remove all of the slack from the line when beginning the cast and should have the rod tip close to the water or ground as the case may be. (I think the process of trying to remove slack at the start of a cast will contribute to wide arcs.)

The caster should increase the stroke length and decrease the amount of arc that the rod travels through. I would ask the student to bend the wrist only a little bit at the end of the stroke.

The casting motion should stop when the rod tip is traveling slightly upwards. About the time the hand reaches the ear.

The power application should be smooth but be enough to bend the rod to help make a straight line path of the rod tip.

Maybe the most helpful thing is that I would have the student cast ground casts so that they can see what is happening to their casts in order to understand what these modifications will do to their loop shape. This is a great way to practice the length of stroke and the application of the wrist to affect the arc of the rod for the cast.

Lyth Hartz

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[GH] From Charlie Shedd :

Dear Gordy The problem of line hitting the ground on the back cast is a good one. I look at it a little differently. To correct I would use 2 ropes like a set of rail road tracks ( thank you Lefty) I have been using this with much luck.The comments I get back are pretty much the same " Oh, now I understand and I can SEE what is happening" Once the person can See what is happening,then it is easier for me to correct. To attempt to correct a problem when the person cannot see things to me makes very little sense . As far as casting side arm the person will have to learn this any way. The main problem I have found in going from horizontal to vertical is the person tends to move the rod in an arc. Solution to move up from horizontal in small increases Thanks for all the great stuff charlie

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[GH] Rene Hesse comes in with the "hands-on-approach":

Tim,

I don't think we spoke of the 'hands on' technique to help give them the feel of the

direction or launch angle, rotation or lack of, and over all feel of a good back cast.

I like hearing the 'fixes' we are covering. The biggest thing is getting the student to

'see' the fault and understand what we are trying to get it to look like. Then they can

take it with them and apply it later.

Rene

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[GH] From Gary Davison:

Gordy,

Is Tim looking for the following.

(Visual) Demo the cast and have the student watch my line on 3 cast, now watch my rod hand on 3 cast. Watch how long I wait to allow the cast to happen. Now watch my rod hand again, Now watch my line again. Now my hand again.

(Verbal) tell them the reason for the action for each part of the cast as you are doing it. Keep it compact, precise, short & to the point for each sequence of the cast. May have to explain why we need to do it this way (Cognitive).

Now have them do it with the rod only with no line out the tip top. Now have them do it with the line out the rod tip top. If they still need some help, (Kinesthetic) get permission to ride along with the student. Help them feel the cast a few times. Then let them do it on their own a few times. If they need it? Help again.

Hopefully by this time they've got it.

Then leave them alone. Give them some space and time to absorb it all.

However, as Lefty stated below giving some students just enough of the important details, so they can figure it out on their own, some times has more impact on the student. It all depends on the student.

Gary