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Walter & Group....
[GH] From Troy Miller :
Rick and I have had some brief discussions about the flow of energy from the caster’s skeleton to the end of the leader in a cast. Yes, it’s definitely a continuum. If you want to carry it to the extreme, the loop begins in the caster’s body.
But here’s a couple questions. What happens when I hand cast the line? When there’s no rod to consider? Do we not get a loop? What happens when I do my “butt of the rod only” hauling demo? Do I not get a loop?
Regards,
Troy Miller ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[GH] Troy,
I think you are correct !
The answer to each question is, YES you do get a loop.
Perhaps my loop starts (with or without a fly rod) at my feet !
I've always felt that body motion goes way beyond simple arm movement in making a cast. I use a certain amount of body motion even when I hand cast with no rod.
Your thoughts, however, are in line with Ed Jaworowski's with the concept that loop formation may actually start way prior to RSP 1. *
Failure to consider this was probably one of the main reasons that attempts to duplicate a human being making a fly cast with various robotics never really made the grade.
Reminds me of the "Iron Byron" of golf. * *
* First rod straight position where the line begins to overtake the rod tip very close to where we actually see a loop formed.
** IRON BYRON An electro-mechanical machine used by the United States Golf Association to test golf clubs and golf balls for conformity to standards. ...Invented by George Manning to duplicate the swing of golf pro, Byron Nelson with repeatable accuracy.
Gordy
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[GH] Troy answers :
I think it all depends on the definitions we assign. Within 5 minutes of the start of my first class, my students know what I’m referring to as a “loop”. That is, the shape that the flyline (and leader) takes as it migrates from formation at the rod tip until the leader has completely straightened. Because I have defined the meaning of the term clearly with my students, they know what I am referring to. Then when I break down the three ways I can transfer energy into my loop, they immediately correlate the energy dynamics. It does work well for me and my students.
I’ve heard of the Iron Byron, but didn’t really know the history of it. Thanks. I have heard of the Iron Bruce… J
Regards,
Troy Miller ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
[GH] As he oft does, Mark Surtees presents a practical way of looking at loop genesis, particularly for our Master Candidates who, I think, are best advised to avoid controversial and/or highly theoretical issues unless asked to explain them. If the candidate is aware of these differences of opinion and theories, well and good. To spout them during an exam ?....... NOT a good idea :
Hi Gordy,
"As soon as the hand moves forward and begins to rotate, the loop actually forms in the butt of the rod. Contrary to popular wisdom, the loop isn't created when the rod straightens. It's already in the flexed/loaded rod, as it is in a baseball bat, golf club or tennis racquet."
This is akin to saying the whole tree is already in the seed.
As the hand moves forward and begins to rotate the rod begins to bend under its own inertia, any energy stored in the rod thereafter and released is only one of many contributing factors that go to the formation of a loop.
If, during a masters test, a candidate were to explain loop formation by saying that it forms in the butt of the rod or a golf club or a tennis racquet I think there might be a raised eyebrow or two…J
Mark
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[GH] Walter Simbirski sends us a brief video of Chase Jablonski making a forward cast with the loop fully unrolling without the energy being fully expended, yielding a post-loop-straightening pull on the rod.
Taking a look at one of Chase's casts here http://vimeo.com/4818576 the line unrolls with a lot of excess energy
but doesn't kick over like I would expect it to.
Walter
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[GH] From Mike Heritage :
Now, I'm an ardent (forgive the pun) Sexylooper and am quite used to some off the wall theories but the idea that there is an embryonic loop in the butt of the rod is getting close to surrealism. The loop is just a moving joint between two legs of a fly line, it's a wave. It cannot be created until the line separates from fly leg only to fly leg and rod leg, it's the point of separation that is the loop. Where, between the rod tip and the butt, can this separation take place?
Perhaps we could discuss my theory that rods load from the butt up, the tip is just an indicator of load. Think about it. Where is the force applied from.
Mike
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[GH] Mike...
Of course, it doesn't separate during rod loading. That is the argument against this theory.
Your theory of rod load is shared by others. I recall back ten years ago, Mark Sedotti embracing the idea of the flow of energy from the rod butt out the tip.....
That energy expenditure, however, starts with the action of the caster.
Then we might ask the question: As the caster begins to move the rod, which bends first, the tip or the butt section ?
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