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Walter & Group.....
[GH] From Mike Heritage (as he refers to my message, yesterday, on testing.) :
''This helps relax my candidate as I try to get the best out of him''
I'm not so sure about that Gordy, if I was the candidate and I had just realised I had given you the opportunity to dig a hole for myself I would be far from relaxed.
I have always understood that in the case of this particular task that 'stroke' was the only time that it is interchangeable with 'arc'. It is certainly the only time I would mix these terms, mainly because those are the words I would use to a student to get them to understand the concept, and, to be fair, most students increase translation automatically as they open their casting angle.
I moved over to using casting angle rather than casting arc when I was working up for my CCI, however, I have recently been hearing casting arc used quite a lot and I am a bit confused as to which one I should use in conversation (or writing, come to that). I think casting angle is more accurate because when asked by a student what casting arc is I would have to explain that it is the change of angle of the butt through the stroke anyway.
Mike
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[GH] Mike,
It must be done carefully. with a clear understanding by the candidate that we are going to take a momentary break to expand upon his answer which will not count toward the outcome. I try to get on the candidate's wave length early in the game and won't do this unless I think he can handle it to advantage.
Though hard to imagine for some examiners, I actually try to make my exam a pleasant experience as possible.... even punctuated with elements of fun.
The feedback I get from even the candidates I have to flunk is gratifying and tells me that this method works. Win or lose, they all learn and are not lost to our CICP program.
The wording on the exam does suggest that arc and stroke are the same. Perhaps we should change that. During the casts made for this demonstration, however, the casting arc and the casting stroke overlap inasmuch as they are occurring almost during the same time interval. For efficient short to medium distance casts, for most casters, both should increase as the distance of the cast increases.
I think it is technically more correct to use the term Casting Angle .... but without an agreed upon definition, this could be interpreted in many other ways. Like it or not, "Casting arc" has crept into our lexicon and understood as being described as an angle by many if not most of us. even though it is an angle which subtends the portion of an imaginary circle which we call the "arc".
Putting it differently, I see the arc as the segment of that circle. I see its measurement as being made in degrees of angle. The very basis of trigonometry is an expansion of elements of that "unit circle" which are measured in degrees. It was this which lead to the design of the modern nautical compass card layed out in degrees.
Gordy
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[GH] A timely request from Ted Warren "
Gordy,
I really enjoy the dialogue of this advanced group and benefit from it.
But I am also quite surprised by the large degree of the differences of opinion, understanding and application at the basic level up through certification.
As a new CCI, I anticipated everything(definitions, teaching outline, testing expectations, etc.) at this basic-CCI level would be clearly defined, uniform and readily available to candidates, teachers & testers.
This would help us grow participation in fly fishing by making it easier to understand and enjoy casting when it's taught in a consistent manner by all FFF instructors. Of course, there's room for individual instructors to add their unique insights and style, and everyone may not agree on every word, but shouldn't every FFF certified instructor deliver a consistent basic body of knowledge to their students at least at the beginner to CCI level?
With the vast knowledge and experience of this group and all the other fly casters and literature, this shouldn't take long to compile and publish. Is there a committee(s) working on this?
If I'm off base on my understanding on the state of FFF teaching & testing, just straighten me out.
Thanks,
Ted
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[GH] Ted,
Fly casting definitions have been in flux for a long time. We have our FFF BOG Glossary Committee which has come close to refining a set of definitions, as well as those of the Sexyloops Board. Both sets of definitions have merit, in my opinion. We have worked in the recent past to try to make this a combined effort, but have not as yet succeeded. One problem lies in the different ways various experts view fly casting.
In the meantime, I have come up with a few "working definitions" which I will use until this situation of solved.
Gordy
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Guy Manning comes in with some valid thoughts :
Gordy,
A few comments on this discussion.
1. Regarding Question 21: My follow up question to Short Line-Short Stoke etc. is: Other than the stoke, what else changes as distance is increased? The stroke is only one of 5 components of a cast that change with distance, this is excluding using a haul. It is their ability to come up with the other variables that tells me how well they understand the issue.
2. I figure I am in the above average intelligence category, but I didn’t pay attention in high school and have little knowledge of math above some basic algebra that I have had to use at one job or another. Prior to getting into casting instruction, if someone said the word arc, I would imagine a curved line, similar in shape to an arch. I did not relate it to an angle as is used in engineering. So now, when I talk about casting arc, I always use visuals. I use my hands or two pieces of a rod to indicate the starting and stopping point of the rod. This I tell them is the casting arc. For terms like concave and convex I draw an imaginary line in the air and say “concave, like a bowl shape” or “convex, like a dome shape. This way there is no confusion as to the meaning of the words.
3. Mark Surtees seems to be insisting that any longer cast is associated with a longer stroke (hand travel). One can use the same stroke length yet open up the casting arc to gain additional distance. This MUST though, be accompanied by an increase in force applied, which in turn exhibits a faster stroke. If additional force is not applied a tail will be formed.
Guy Manning
FFF Master Certified Casting Instructor
Moderator - FFFCCI yahoo Group
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[GH] Guy,
A good way to look at it . Especially when teaching !
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[GH] From Jim Bass :
Gordy I have been told the casting arc is the casting angle plus the stroke. CA+ S = A. It helps me understand the three better.
Jim Bass
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Jim,
After spending my years on our BOG Glossary Committee and having studied the opinions of members of several other similar committees and groups of respected organizations .... and finding no consensus among or between them, I've come to my own way of viewing certain definitions including CASTING STROKE and CASTING ARC . I did so after lots of independent thought and having the benefit of other's thoughts and opinions along the way.
At present, I see it this way:
For most casts, the Casting Stroke and the Casting Arc occur at the same time.
Some long distance casters use almost pure translation (Drag) at the start of their cast to which is later added a combination of translation and rotation. As the cast progresses to completion, rotation usually dominates.
I see the Casting Stroke as movement of the hand... the Casting Arc as the angular movement of the rod.
The Casting Stroke can be measured in terms of linear distance moved by the hand. (Caster centric)
The Casting Arc can be measured in terms of degrees of angular change of the rod position. (Rod centric)
Leading to my revised current "working definitions" :-
CASTING STROKE : MOVEMENT OF THE HAND LEADING TO LOOP FORMATION.
Comment: This includes movements of the hand and fly rod which when combined lead to loop formation. “Drag” (pure linear movement), rotation (casting arc), and creep are included. For this reason, the term, “leading to” is used rather than “sufficient to cause”.
In this model, the casting stroke starts with the first movement of the hand and rod in the direction of the cast and finishes with the start of loop formation.
STROKE LENGTH : DISTANCE TRAVELED BY THE HAND FROM THE START OF MOVEMENT IN THE DIRECTION OF THE CAST TO LOOP FORMATION.
CASTING ARC : ANGULAR CHANGE IN THE POSITION OF THE ROD BUTT DURING THE CASTING STROKE
DRAG : LINEAR MOVEMENT OF THE HAND AND ROD WITH MINIMAL OR NO ROTATION.
Comment: Sometimes called “PULL”. Drag is not present with most casts. Many casters don’t use it. It is used by some competition distance casters as a prelude to the start of the casting arc.
Drag when used alone cannot usually result in loop formation. It can do so only when used as an additive to combined rotation and translation and/or pure angular movement.
It is accelerated movement to the degree that acceleration can be accomplished with translational movement of the hand and body alone.
Drag can : 1. Take up unwanted slack. 2. Initiate the casting stroke by starting to overcome fly line inertia. 3. Provide momentum. 4. Delay rotation.
My present thoughts. When better working definitions come along, I'll embrace them.
Gordy
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