Task 19 Discussion 8

Walter & Group....

[GH] Ally Gowans gets us thinking as he comes in with another way of looking at the tailing loop :

Hi Gordy,

The three examples given in the test relate to the same problem namely insufficient arc. (1) and (2) are self-explanatory and (3) results in the same situation because if a rod tip is suddenly accelerated and decelerated as described the cast cannot be prevented from completing with insufficient arc.

Line crossover (tailing loops) are caused by the tip top path intercepting the oncoming line path. The oncoming line path depends on its starting location and the acceleration applied to the line. Therefore a concave (downward curving) tip path does not always result in a tailing loop.

Task 19 description I would prefer “incorrect acceleration".

If I have done my job correctly as a professional instructor and a client inadvertently produced a tailing loop I would ask what caused it and expect the correct answer during the first lesson.

If that answer was “incorrect acceleration” I would accept it but might add something like – “Yes you need to accelerate for longer” or “Yes - acceleration needs to be smooth and the tip should pull the line fastest at the end of the stroke! Of course the tip will always do exactly that because the line has no brakes and if the tip velocity in the line direction reduces the cast will propagate at that instant regardless of the total amount of movement of the rod. In other words the “cast” terminates at the instant of loop formation.

I hope that this is helpful.

Best regards,

Ally Gowans

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[GH]

Ally:

You have offered a plausible hypothesis as to another potential root cause of the tailing loop as performed in conformity with Task 19. That all are in one way or another related to alterations of the casting arc. Frankly, an attractive thought . Also, use of the term, "incorrect acceleration" and its contribution.

The former might be seen as competing for primacy with that postulated by Phil Gay when he stated that tailing loops are generated by problems with the use of power. (We'll now say, "force".) The latter, supports it.

Of course, in the fly casting literature, numerous theories on the generation of tails abound. Even more, as the subject is endlessly debated.

Perhaps we could look at this in terms of the likelihood that a tail will result when we introduce various changes to the otherwise "perfect cast with perfect layout". Even then, the likelihood of a tail will vary a great deal if we further complicate the issue by adding the factor of the degree of tort. (One example which emerged in private messages being that the chance of a tail developing when we creep and reduce available casting arc is partly dependent on the degree of loss of arc and various means of compensating.)

Jim Valle pointed out that when he simply wants to show a tail to students, that he purposely uses three methods of doing it all in the same cast.

Then I got to thinking ..... How best to advise the student who is using "all of the above" methods at one time to make his tailing loops while oblivious to the things he might be doing in the process ? Would we go to one of the so-called "bandaid fixes" ? Or would we tackle one of his problems at a time ? If so, which one to tackle first ? ( All MCI candidates should know the answer to that one. It is a good question for the Orals.)

The idea of going to theories of probability, remind me of one of many statistical probability formulae which I'd been taught and used over my years of study .... the Bayes theorem. I was recently reminded of this while reading an article in a current issue of Scientific American.*

Sparing all from the details and agonies of calculation by placing that in an attachment, I offer this simple quotation :

"Discovered by English clergyman Thomas Bayes (in the 18th century), the formula is a simple one-liner: Initial Beliefs + Recent Objective Data = A New and Improved Belief." *

* Why Bayes Rules, by Sharon Bertsch McGrayne, Scientific American, May, 2011, Vo. 304, Number 5, p. 28.

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[GH] From Mike Heritage :

Other than coming off plane, where would "too much force" NOT apply in generating tailing loops?

High back cast High forward cast, ie breaking the 180 rule?

Mike

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[GH] Mike,

You put it well when you wrote the word "apply" since that didn't offer the problem with force as being a sole cause.

Ans. I think the use of too much force at the wrong time might well apply except in certain circumstances a you pointed out.

I also like Ally's thought about acceleration.

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[GH] From Gary Eaton :

Gordy,

Since we are looking at rod tip movement - specifically pace of that movement, perhaps replacing power and force with speed or pace, would be reasonable. I started doing this this spring in my classes. (I always avoided using "power" as almost nobody needs more power in their cast) Speed seems foreign to me at this point, but I could see it being more palatable to beginning students and might even be more correct. The fewer things we expect people to un-learn, the more credible our instruction.

As far as established literature, evolution of terminology occurs naturally. Those of us with books from long ago and not-so-long ago, adjust our reading to accommodate antiquated items like letter designation of fly lines, absence of horse-hair and rarity of silk fly lines, and not having solid wood and steel fly rods being produced. So too, terms, theories, and translations find their enduring acceptance within the proofs and applicability of their substance.

Gary Eaton

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[GH] Gary,

You are ahead of me on the use of those terms !

Never thought about the use of the term, "pace". I'll think about that.

I agree with your statement on the evolution of technology in the light of information from older texts. Older texts are none the less valuable since they bring us back to the background building blocks of the past.

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[GH] From Roy Sedge :

Dear Gordy:

I do not have a copy of Jason Borger's The Nature of Fly Casting: A Modular Approach, 2001. I've searched the net, book stores, etc. and the only copies available start around $800 (I found a real deal at $300). Perhaps's I should sell my gold and buy up copies of his book at that rate!

The MCI study group often refers to the book and in order to keep up I would like to get my hands on a copy.

I think that I have exhausted all of the relevant search engines.

Thanks,

Roy

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[GH] Roy,

I can't imagine paying anything like that for the book !

Your message and my answer should be heeded by all Master Candidates who are not in a position to acquire an expensive library.

Some suggestions:

1. Contact our own member, Bob Rumpf. His e-address : caddis@xxxxxxx Bob has made the point clear that he makes no personal profit on the books found for our members. I, for one, am deeply thankful to him !

2. If Bob can't find you a copy at a reasonable price, try to find a used copy from one of the online book venders such as Amazon.com. (Note the second attachment, derived a few minutes ago)

3. In the event 1. & 2. don't work out, Try contacting the author, Jason Borger : jasonborger@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

4. Since the book is registered at the Library of Congress, you local librarian can send for a copy which you can study.

I am fortunate to live near the fabulous Elwood Harry Memorial Library at the International Game Fish Assoc. in Dania, Florida. Sometimes I go there and spend hours reading books I don't have. Librarian, Gail Morchower, will obtain any books they don't have on hand for me when I call her in advance. Available to any IGFA member.

To help with your search :

Title: Jason Borger's Nature of Fly 'Casting - A Modular Approach.

ISBN 0-9711570-0-6

Library of Congress Congress Number : 2001118670

Publisher: Shadow Caster Press, P.O. Box 2166, Wausau, "W"I. 54402-2166 USA

http://www.jasonborger.com

scp@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

For Internet search. Key Words : 1. Fly Casting 2. Fly Fishing 3. Jason Borger

One of the problems we have with discussing issues from fly casting texts is that many of our members do not have these books and rely on the comments and quotes we send. When we get into a controversial subject such as the one at hand, before making final judgement on the author's theories or writings, it is mandatory to actually read the entire text so his teachings and opinions are not taken out of context.

Example: Our recent discussions of Jason's "A-L-E" phases, might have gone a bit differently had all actually read the entire text which included figures, diagrams, and reference to data including some from Caroling Gatti and Noel Perkins, University of Michigan. (p. 26, Figure 2-12.)

Gordy