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Walter & Group :
[GH] As we check out these answers, it becomes obvious that there is more than a single correct response to many of the questions.
If they make sense to you, you may consider adding some of them to your "bag of teaching tricks"
I have purposely included many answer messages so we can learn by reviewing a multiplicity of answers.
In my next message, I'll send one more from Bob Hansell. This one will also contain my comments.
Gordy
[GH] From Jim Bass :
[GH] Recently, a question was sent to several MCI's which basically asked for the best time to start the forward cast with respect to the unfurling back cast loop. The responses included several different opinions. This brings me to ask these 11 questions;-
1. from a purely casting mechanics standpoint is it most efficient to start the forward cast...:-
a. Just before the back cast loop has fully unrolled?
b. Just after the back cast loop has fully unrolled?
The answer is C
c. Exactly at the point where the back cast loop has straightened?
2. How do you usually do it? I usually make the forward just as close as I can to the complete unfurling.
3. What is likely to happen if the caster starts the forward cast way too early (when the back cast is only about 2/3rds unrolled)? You will lose 1/3 of your load and have a collapsed cast
4. What are some of the problems which may occur if you wait too long after the back cast loop has fully unfurled? You will have a cast that hits the water or ground causes your timing to be off more or send all the fish into another section of the river.
5. Briefly explain how you would teach your beginning casting student to do it. Have them use a word to time the pause (Mississippi) and start watching their back cast.
6. You have an intermediate level student. She is doing fairly well, but is having trouble with timing in that she can't judge the time to start her forward cast. She has arthritis and cannot turn to see her back cast. How would you approach that problem? Teaching a timing word or a count and working toward her feel (not the load) but the timing get in to a rhythm.
7. Briefly describe some of the methods used by expert distance casters as they go from an unrolling back cast loop to their forward cast. They watch their watch their back cast and create a rhythm in which they feel the timing. They also reposition the hand (drift).
8. How would you describe CREEP? You start the rod hand forward at the stop, without letting the line unfurl. This shortens the available stroke.
9. Do you think that a fully unrolled back cast loop has much rearward momentum? I think the loop has dissipated but the line still has momentum until the rod starts forward or does not move back in a drift.
10. Many instructors have used the term, PRE-LOAD. What does this mean to you? Some action which would place load on the rod before normal loading take place.
11. Distance casters sometimes use the term, HANG TIME. What do you think this means? The amount of time you can encounter before gravity pulls the line down.
Thanks Gordy for the continued help and encouragement.
Jim
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[GH] Mark Sedotti takes the position that some of these answers depend upon the casting circumstances and the objectives of the cast. They are not absolutes.
Reminds us of a statement made famous by Dennis Grant as applicable to so many things in fly casting..... "IT DEPENDS " ! :
Gordy,
Hi. How are you? I hope you're well. I'm good.
I don't have a distinct opinion on this, and it comes from the way I cast.
Sometimes I start forward right before the line straightens out completely.
Often enough I wait for it to completely straighten (especially on very long casts with lots of line in the air) before coming forward. I make SURE that backcast straightens. Sometimes I even feel the "bump" of straightening too, on short or long casts.
AND enough of the time (especially when fishing) I will let that line straighten, and then let the backcast fall to the point where I get the cast to rise at a good climbing angle going forward, with the entire cast NOW (from the point where I START the forward cast through the entire climbing part going forward - actually the entire forward cast is now "climbing") being 180 degrees straight. Observers tell me that my fly often just misses the water's surface before I start going forward, or that it just "ticks" the surface at this point.
I do all three "casts - backcasts" instinctively now, and really don't even think about it when casting or fishing. It just happens and depends on the casting situation.
What can I do? How can I teach THAT?
Actually, most casters do best by starting forward just before the backcast straightens. I mostly teach this.
For an advanced caster, who, say, wants to get involved in a 5 weight distance contest. I tell him or her to make sure that backcast is straightened before coming forward. So they have to wait for this. I'll tell you, in my experience, with a LOT of line in the air going back, you can't wait long at ALL after all that line straightens. You come forward, actually, RIGHT when the line straightens. The timing here is critical and really tight.
I've never taught anybody the "third type" of cast - backcast I do (letting the backcast fall strategically to desired level after straightening). I just do it whenever.
Hope you are having a good Tarpon season.
Best Regards,
Mark
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[GH] From Rick Whorwood :
Hi Gordy
I was one of the guys who was asked this question by Yii Yang Wu, my answer was based on (and possibly what Lefty's is thinking), how long does it takes the brain to look at the loop in it's final moments of un-rolling, then react by moving the hand forward ( from an inexperienced caster). Timing and controlling slack is always a problem with new casting students. If a student waits for the line to straighten then reacts, In my experience he/she looses control.
If you're asking an experience caster, sure straighten the line then move forward.
Yii Yang Wu is not an experienced caster, from what he told me.
Rick Whorwood
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[GH] From Mark Surtees :
Hi Gordy
1. From a purely casting mechanics standpoint, is it most efficient to start the forward cast... :-
a. Just before the back cast loop has fully unrolled ?
b. Just after the back cast loop has fully unrolled ?
c. Exactly at the point where the back cast loop has straightened ?
From a purely mechanics standpoint C.
2. How do you usually do it ?
I have to look or, if I’m not looking, I have to guess. I have poor neurological feedback from my hands.
3. What is likely to happen if the caster starts the forward cast way too early (when the back cast is only about 2/3rds unrolled) ?
Tail
4. What are some of the problems which may occur if you wait too long after the back cast loop has fully unfurled ?
Loss of tension introducing slack, underslung loop, loss of control of trajectory.
5. Briefly explain how you would teach your beginning casting student to do it.
I show them what a loop is, I explain how to make one, I ask them to make one and I explain how to look at their loops.
6. You have an intermediate level student. She is doing fairly well, but is having trouble with timing in that she can't judge the time to start her forward cast. She has arthritis and cannot turn to see her back cast. How would you approach that problem ?
Open her stance and have her cast across her body so that she can see..
7. Briefly describe some of the methods used by expert distance casters as they go from an unrolling back cast loop to their forward cast.
The rod is repositioned down the rod leg as the loop unrolls and may be rotated to an almost level position to max leverage for the next FC. The caster may step physically backwards to increase the distance over which they can apply force to the line during the FC.
8. How would you describe CREEP ?
Unintentional movement of the rod in the direction of the next casting Stroke.
9. Do you think that a fully unrolled back cast loop has much rearward momentum ?
No.
10. Many instructors have used the term, PRE-LOAD. What does this mean to you ?
I have struggled to understand it from a mechanics PoV, so, basically, I don’t use it...
11. Distance casters sometimes use the term, HANG TIME. What do you think this means ?
I imagine it is the amount of time it takes for the line to fall to the ground.
Mark Surtees
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[GH] From Peter Morse :
GH] Recently, a question was sent to several MCI's which basically asked for the best time to start the forward cast with respect to the unfurling back cast loop. The responses included several different opinions. This brings me to ask these 11 questions;-
1. From a purely casting mechanics standpoint, is it most efficient to start the forward cast... :-
a. Just before the back cast loop has fully unrolled ?
b. Just after the back cast loop has fully unrolled ?
c. Exactly at the point where the back cast loop has straightened ?
c.
2. How do you usually do it ?
By starting at a. which means that by the time we have reacted we're at c. By the time we have reacted at b&c we have lost some tension, especially at b.
3. What is likely to happen if the caster starts the forward cast way too early (when the back cast is only about 2/3rds unrolled) ?
Loss of tension and it will most likely be mirrored on the front cast, we won't get a turn over of the line and leader. There will probably be insufficient tension to even cause the rod tip to dip and a tail to be thrown,
4. What are some of the problems which may occur if you wait too long after the back cast loop has fully unfurled ?
Loss of tension which is probably going to mess up our acceleration. It also becomes a change of trajectory and we will most likely throw an open forward loop unless we aim high. Its a rough technique for altering the trajectory especially with shooting heads. The fly/line is going to clip the water/grass which will possibly cause the tip of the rod to dip and this will give us a tailing loop.
5. Briefly explain how you would teach your beginning casting student to do it.
I would stand them side on and ask them to come forward as the tip of the line and leader begins to unroll, to watch it, to feel it, and to hear it.
6. You have an intermediate level student. She is doing fairly well, but is having trouble with timing in that she can't judge the time to start her forward cast. She has arthritis and cannot turn to see her back cast. How would you approach that problem ?
I would stand her side on so she can watch the line. I believe we develop the correct timing intuitively, we know how much line we have out the front, how fast its moving back and how much line we've shot into the back cast, the well trained brain is a remarkable thing. An advanced caster should be able to put a 2 weight line on a stiff 7 weight rod and not looking at it but should still get the timing right without waiting to feel a tug.
7. Briefly describe some of the methods used by expert distance casters as they go from an unrolling back cast loop to their forward cast.
Stop, drift, drag accelerate - then begin rotation.
8. How would you describe CREEP ?
A premature forward movement THAT RESULTS IN A TAILING LOOP OR A CLOSED LOOP.
9. Do you think that a fully unrolled back cast loop has much rearward momentum ?
No
10. Many instructors have used the term, PRE-LOAD. What does this mean to you ?
Using the rearward momentum to maintain good line tension and to add load to the rod.
11. Distance casters sometimes use the term, HANG TIME. What do you think this means ?
Its the moments as the loop unrolls they use to give them the time to re-position themselves and the rod to begin the forward cast.
Peter Morse
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