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Walter & Group...
[GH] Lots to digest, here, as we wind up this topic.
I'll use Bob Hansell's answer message as a springboard for additional comments.
[GH] From Bob Hansell :
[GH] Recently, a question was sent to several MCI's which basically asked for the best time to start the forward cast with respect to the unfurling back cast loop. The responses included several different opinions. This brings me to ask these 11 questions;-
1. From a purely casting mechanics standpoint, is it most efficient to start the forward cast... :-
a. Just before the back cast loop has fully unrolled ? A. Because by the time you begin the stroke the line is going to be close to fully straightened
b. Just after the back cast loop has fully unrolled ?
c. Exactly at the point where the back cast loop has straightened ?
[GH] From Bruce Richards :
[BR] I've been traveling and not able to keep up with this thread entirely, but think this issue is much simpler than meets the eye. When to start the next cast is dependent on the position of the fly line, not fly line and leader. The fly line needs to be as straight as possible for maximum efficiency. There is little mass in the leader, if the cast starts before the leader straightens little is lost. If the caster waits until fly line AND leader are straight the line will drop significantly before much speed is generated, which is slack, and inefficient.
Bruce
2. How do you usually do it ? Watch the backcast.
[GH] Works well when the caster uses an open stance and an off vertical casting plane.
For vertical casting plane casters, it is difficult to actually see the backcast without getting into twisted positions which can result in compromising the cast.
3. What is likely to happen if the caster starts the forward cast way too early (when the back cast is only about 2/3rds unrolled) ? Limited load due to pulling out slack in the system, shorter effective stroke (I would define effective stroke length as the line is causing resistance to the rod and bending it versus the rod pulling slack out of the line and not creating tension)
4. What are some of the problems which may occur if you wait too long after the back cast loop has fully unfurled ? Again slack in the system. The forward stroke needs to regain tension and then the effective stroke length is shortened
5. Briefly explain how you would teach your beginning casting student to do it. Watch the backcast. I would demo starting too soon and discuss the results, starting too late and discuss the results and then apply the correct timing and discuss the results. I usually find self-discovery with positive feedback works well.
[GH] Ground casting can help since this allows the student to see both forward and backcast loops.
Also, using the timing for the forward cast to judge that for the backcast works unless there is a headwind or back wind. Of course, the timing of the unrolling loops will change if the caster slips line and changes the amount of line carried between the two strokes.
6. You have an intermediate level student. She is doing fairly well, but is having trouble with timing in that she can't judge the time to start her forward cast. She has arthritis and cannot turn to see her back cast. How would you approach that problem ? I would begin by turning sideways and cast sidearm which is easier to see the backcast. Once the timing and feel is felt I would ask her to close her eyes and get the feel. Then she can turn around to try a more overhead cast with the feel of the load in her mind. We would practice with different line lengths so the feel becomes distinct.
[GH] Paul Bourcq uses the technique in which the student is taught to use the timing for the unrolling of the forward cast loop to apply to that of the back cast loop. This is a method I use ... and, I think, particularly useful when the student simply cannot see the back cast loop for whatever reason.
[PB] 6. You have an intermediate level student. She is doing fairly well, but
is having trouble with timing in that she can't judge the time to start
her forward cast. I would see if she was a dancer or musician or had some
timing or rhythm to her. I would explain to her that casting is like a
cadence with equal pauses or timing in front and back. She could then
"hear in her head" like a metronome how long it takes for the front cast
to form and straighten. She could then make the back cast and pause the
same amount of time. You could also have her make a back cast and as long
as her hand is relaxed tell her to wait for the line to pull on the rod
and move it. Once she starts to feel this load you could continue
forward.
Paul
7. Briefly describe some of the methods used by expert distance casters as they go from an unrolling back cast loop to their forward cast. Drift, shift and go. I see them looking back into a good long drift, shifting to a forward cast ready position and begin the forward stroke
[GH] Some expert casters use no drift. They bring their rod tips way back as part of their backcast stroke. Lefty Kreh and Ed Jaworowski are noted for doing and teaching this. I do it that way, as well.... especially when fishing in the salt.
Chase Jablonski demonstrated another technique. He used one hand grip which was most efficient for his backcast and then, as the backcast loop was unfurling, he skillfully changed to an entirely different grip which he found most efficient for his forward stroke.
8. How would you describe CREEP ? I see it as a repositioning of the rod or rod hand forward while the line is unrolling on the backcast which results in a shorter effective stroke length. Had a discussion with a local master who ask me to think about creep as also beginning the forward stroke before the line unrolled. I never thought of that as creep; I thought of that as a timing issue. Would like a little clarity or discussion on that topic.
[GH] Many opinions on "creep". Let's look at one from Mike Heritage :
[MH] 8. How would you describe CREEP ?
As an over hyped fault that creates an unwarranted amount of discussion. It does not, in and of itself, create a tailing loop and once pointed out is relatively easy to cure.
[GH] I think Mike is correct in that by itself, creep does not always result in the caster making a tailing loop. Here is how I look at creep :
Creep may be within or without the casting stroke depending on one's definition of casting stroke.
It is generally made inadvertently.
Creep is essentially unaccelerated (zero to slow) movement in the direction of the cast and opposite the direction of an unrolling or newly unrolled loop.
A casting stroke begun early while the loop is still unrolling is just that. It isn't creep so long as it is made with smooth acceleration.
Creep can occur on either back cast or forward cast. When made as the forward loop is still unrolling, some call it, "reverse creep".
Creep has been noted by Bruce Richards, to be mostly rotational movement as seen with the Casting Analyzer studies.
Creep results in lessening the available casting arc. This may or may not be sufficient to result in the caster's action which can secondarily result in a tail.
9. Do you think that a fully unrolled back cast loop has much rearward momentum ? Not really, I think that is the end of the momentum and the beginning of the line falling and the tension diminishing
[GH] For most casts, almost all of the energy has dissipated once the loop has straightened. If not, there may be a "kick" which can add slack waves.
10. Many instructors have used the term, PRE-LOAD. What does this mean to you ? The rod is already bending as you begin the casting stroke
[GH] From Bruce Richards :
[BR] There has been a lot of talk of "pre-loading" for years, but no good caster I know of relies on preloading. If a caster throws hard enough that the line has enough energy left when it straightens to "pre-load" the rod, it has enough energy to "kick" and cause slack in the line. Ideally, the line straightens with little excess energy, which yields the straightest line and greatest efficiency. There are much more effective ways to generate rod load than through this kind of "pre-load".
Bruce
[GH] From Bernd Ziesche. Check out this video. See if you can see any rod bend which would indicate sufficient back cast loop momentum to result in pre-load :
Hi Gordy,
number 10. seems pretty interesting to me:
10. Many instructors have used the term, PRE-LOAD. What does this mean to you?
If we define rod load to be rod bend many of them for many casts have been wrong.
Am not saying pre load doesn't exist at all in any casts. But in quiet a lot of slow motion vids there is still no rod bend in that moment in which a lot of instructors maybe thought it should be there.
I'd say in most casts it's more about line tension than rod bend.
Greets
Bernd
----- original Nachricht --------
Betreff: Backcast loop / forward cast 3
Gesendet: Do, 16. Jun 2011
Von: Gordy Hill
11. Distance casters sometimes use the term, HANG TIME. What do you think this means ? Especially on the backcast, I see the line in an upward trajectory. The line unrolls and falls and is still tensioned. It gets into a height that allows the caster to cast forward at 180 degrees towards the forward target (not down at the grass or water). The timing between the line being at the top and at the height of the forward stroke is the hang time. (Do not know if that is correct, but it is how I interpret it now)
[GH] Opinions will vary considerably on this one :
From Mike Heritage :
[MH] 11. Distance casters sometimes use the term, HANG TIME. What do you think this means ?
There is no such thing, unless someone has devised a line that defies gravity. I assume it refers to the amount of time the line remains airialised during the shoot.
[GH] From John Till :
11. Distance casters sometimes use the term, HANG TIME. What do you think this means ? I believe it means that period of time after the abrupt stop while the line is straightening out.
[GH] From Paul Bourcq :
[PB] 11. Distance casters sometimes use the term, HANG TIME. What do you
think this means ? Hang time is the time between fly line straightening
and when gravity makes your line hit the ground.
[GH] From Don Pendleton :
[DP] 11. Distance casters sometimes use the term, HANG TIME. What do you think this means ? NFL commentators talk about how long a punter has put the football in the air, I'd assume distance casters are using the same phrase as to how long the fly line is in the air.
[GH] From Lyth Hartz :
[LH] 11. Distance casters sometimes use the term, HANG TIME. What do you think this means ? Again I am not totally sure but I think it is when the back (or forward) cast is made with an upward trajectory to help overcome the effects of gravity on a long line. Then, the “hang time” is the time to wait until the line falls to horizontal or maybe even slightly below horizontal in order to get a good 180 degree cast in the next trajectory to make a strong distance cast. (Because the delivery cast on a distance cast might be elevated to overcome gravity, the back cast might be allowed to fall below horizontal to be able to make the higher trajectory cast from a 180 degree position.
[GH] The very best demonstration of this I ever saw was made by Jeff Wagner as he gave his workshop on distance casting.
The clearest writing on this subject, in my opinion, was by Joan Wulff. She described this as the "See saw" under the title of Long Cast Trajectory. Her simple diagrams make this easy to understand. I've never noted her to use the words, "hang time".*
* Joan Wulff's FLY CASTING TECHNIQUES, by Joan Wulff, 1987, p. 121.
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