Teaching / Loop knots / Loop shapes

Walter & Group....

Stu Sholiton sent me this link to a Rockwell Co. video (attached) of an engineering instructor who is giving a virtual "acadamy award" presentation which completely baffles his audience.  It reminded me of the times when some instructors (mia culpa included) have done almost this as they teach fly casting.  I placed it in an attachment and sent it to Lefty.  This is Lefty's response :

Gordy--THANKS!!! It reminds me of some fellows instructing how to catch trout-and a few casting instructors.

I have often said trout FISHERMEN often speak Latin--thank God the trout don't.

Just for your info I think so far as loop knots go that there are three criteria I think important. ONE--it should be as strong as possible---TWO- it should be easy to make the size loop desired and THREE the tag end should point toward the fly--so it doesn't grab weeds, etc. The Non-Slip Knot is the only one I know that satisfies all three. 

 

All The Best,

 

Lefty

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

 

Lefty ....    Couldn't resist that one.  A lot to be learned by that.

 

Tied correctly, the non-slip loop does exactly as you point out.   I got away from using it simply because I had trouble cinching it down correctly (pulling down on the wrong end) and also had difficulty making the loop as small as I wanted.  You had then taught me to do it correctly, but I'd already gotten into the habit (rut) of using the other knots.  Thanks for reminding me about this great knot.  I'll get back to it.  

 

 If there is one disadvantage to this knot is that it is "tie-er  dependant" like the Albright Special.  Both have to be tied correctly to be reliable.   The uni-loop is harder to goof up...... (although any knot can be tied incorrectly and fail accordingly.)

 

Gordy

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                                                                  LOOP SHAPES

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gary Meyer has been working on casting various loop shapes.  His message :-

Gordy,

Mac Brown?s diagrams of different loop shapes really piqued my

interest. I?ve been looking forward to his insight, but have seen very

little discussion and not his reply. Did I miss some posts?

Here are my thoughts:

His first diagram is of the usual round shaped (symmetrical) loop.

We?ve all seen it and thrown it, and to me it represents that cast that

just works well and feels "balanced". I get the feeling that the rod

tip stayed somewhat in touch with the flyline as the rod flexed from

load through RSP to counterflex and back to stationary. The caster has

matched the appropriate force and rotation to the speed of the line and

the "take-off" of the loop.

The next two diagrams show unbalanced or asymmetrical loops. Instead

of the apex of the loop being equidistant from both legs, the apex is

displaced closer to one of the legs. Using Mac?s hint about tension I

expect this asymmetry of shape is due to more tension in one leg than

the other. It would make sense, if one were to imagine the midpoint

between the two legs as a fulcrum, that the leading leg would have the

less tension, just as the lighter child on a see-saw assumes the higher

position. Therefore the "rat snout", with the rod leg leading, would

have more tension in the fly leg, and vice versa for the "boat bow"?

the latter has more tension in the rod leg. I?ve been waiting for Mac

to confirm or explain this.

So, how does one create these shapes on purpose? Being lanky (long of

limb and relatively lightly muscled) I?ve developed a rather long-

stroke casting style ? relying more on distance than force to generate

the work I need to add energy to the line. Coupling my long stroke

with a preference for slower rods allows me relatively more time to

feel my stroke and I?ve realized that I can form loops using varying

techniques. If I take Bruce Richard?s suggestion to "delay rotation" I

can "pull" through most of the stroke and rely on a late wrist rotation

to maintain the tip acceleration. Conversely, if I begin wrist

rotation earlier in the stroke I find that I can incorporate a late

"stab" to maintain the load near the tip and form a loop. Despite the

consensus, I feel the latter technique is actually relying on

translation to maintain the acceleration, but must admit that I can do

it much easier with a slower rod. My main point is this: whether I

pull or stab, I tend to make either round or "rat snout" loops.

This weekend I spent a few hours with Walt Hoover playing with loop

formations. Walt is a powerful distance caster with a casting

technique almost the polar opposite from mine. His stroke is short,

quick and powerful. He loads the rod deeply and stops quickly. He

uses no wrist turnover and you can actually hear the tip whistle after

his stop ? the loop has departed and the tip snaps forward free of

tension. His loops almost always have the "boat bow" shape.

Intuitively, I think the shape of the loop has to do with the

relationship between the trajectory of the line to the angle of the rod

butt at the time when the loop forms and releases from the tip. If the

angle between the rod butt and the line is small, the caster has

brought the rod tip quite forward (my cast); if the angle is large, the

caster has stopped the rod and released the loop much sooner (Walt?s

cast).

If you draw or imagine that symmetrical loop, with the apex equidistant

from both legs, then draw a line from the apex back down the middle of

the legs (essentially cutting the round loop in half), you can see both

asymmetrical loops: the top half shows the rat snout, the bottom half

shows the boat bow. I think by exaggerating aspects of the cast, the

apex of the loop can be displaced toward one of the legs. In my case,

by holding onto the loop I displace the apex toward the rod leg; in

Walt?s cast that releases the loop early, the apex is displaces closer

to the fly leg.

That?s my take, I look forward to Mac?s.

Thanks again for hosting this most excellent forum!

Gary Meyer

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gary,

Your message is right in line with Mac Brown's concept of looking at the production of various loop shapes through "tension glasses".

I, for one, need to learn more about this !

Gordy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Coming up:   Answers to Quiz.       G.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: SSholiton@xxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 6:31 PM
To: SSholiton@xxxxxxx
Subject: : Engineering 101

 

 

 

This is a  very funny and classic presentation organized by Rockwell  Int'l.

Read the introduction before clicking on the video link below.

Several years ago, Rockwell  International decided to get into the heavy duty transmission business.  
They were getting ready to tape a first introduction video, and as a warm up, the professional narrator began what has become a legend within the trucking  industry.  
This man should have won an academy for his stellar performance.  
 Now remember this is strictly off the cuff, nothing is written down, this became the biggest talk in the industry, vs the new product which they were introducing. 

  http://home.comcast.net/~steveham21/turbo.mpg