Spey / CCI/MCCI exams / Reading the line

Walter & Group...

Soon Lee sends an informative message on the choice of Spey lines in his communication with Kirk Eberhard.  I placed his detailed answer in an attachment.   Gordy

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                                                              CCI / MCCI TESTS

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From Rick Brown.  Interesting comparisons ! :

Gordy, last weekend at the Gulf Coast Conclave, I was talking to my good friend Keith Richard, MCI about the Master's Exam. I made the comment that it did not look that much tougher than the CCI. His comments and explanation led me to this comparison.

 

My daughter is taking a series of exams to be come a CFA, (Certified Financial Analyst). The exams are very difficult. After she had passed the first test, I asked her what the second and third exams  would cover?

 

Her answer explains (to me) the difference between a CCI and a MCI.

 

"Dad, we cover the  very same information in part two and three that we did in part one. The difference is the depth and level  of knowledge required, the ability to analyze situations and problems and the virtual elimination of errors and potential errors."

 

In different words, this is the same thing that Keith told me.

 

Rick

 

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Rick...   Very true... up to a point.

 

Some additional differences between the CCI and the MCCI exams is that the CCI must be competent in fly casting and the ability to teach it.  The Master must demonstrate stewardship of fly casting and teaching as well as various kinds of fly fishing, tackle expertise and fly fishing ethics.

 

The Master must also have expertise in testing CCI candidates as well as participating on teams for the testing/certification of master candidates after qualifying for this.

 

Gordy

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A fresh point of view from Peter Lami :

 

Gordy,

I believe all the members of your Master Study Group want to know the answer to referenced subject and have carefully taken note of all the advice from the Master community.  It is all very good advice, but I suspect much of it all begins to sound like the same repeated motherhoods to most MCCI candidates and they are left wondering "What's it really like, candidly speaking?"  

 

My simple answer is 1) the CCI is a standardized test; 2) the MCCI exam is 100% subjective.  In the MCCI test, the candidate can never be sure whether the emphasis will be on casting or teaching.  Truth be told, in the last 5 years, the scope of the MCCI test has been expanded and compulsory casting tasks are judged with much tighter tolerances than ever before.  To that, you can add the bias of each examiner and you have the making of a hell of a test!  The old saying, "sounds tough, good luck with that" comes to mind.

However, if you are serious about this, my views regarding the MCCI test shouldn't discourage you at all.  It is a lifetime achievement and worth pursuing.

Tight loops!

Peter Lami

 

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Challenge from Ally Gowans :

Hi Gordy,

 

Thanks for your ?Reasons for Failures?. If a good number of Masters/CBOGs in the group would be good enough to offer the benefit of their experience I think that the information collected would be very helpful for those studying to take the MCI test, mentors and for those responsible for compiling the tests. Lots of these guys receive group messages so now when their input is needed I hope that they step up to the plate!

 

Knowing a problem is halfway to the solution!

Best regards,

Ally Gowans

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                                                       READING THE LINE

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Ally Gowans responds to my comments on Ed Jaworoski's "reading the line" to diagnose and correct faults :

Hi Gordy,

 

Your comments about Ed ?reading the line? interested me because I assumed that all instructors had to be able to do that!

 

How else can faults be diagnosed?

 

I teach the basics of ?reading the line? to every student by demonstrating typical faults and when they make mistakes I ask them what went wrong. If the quick answer I get is a blank stare I ask them what they saw and then I usually get a description. So typically my next question then is ?How did that happen?? If they either know or guess the answer correctly that?s good; if not I explain what happened and attempt to demonstrate the fault, cause and cure.

 

Reading the line means that you can diagnose problems from a long distance away. Many instructors make the mistake of standing too close to their students and in so doing fail to see the big picture. I see the same mistake being made by examiners too which makes me wonder how often they teach.

 

Maybe a few more pictures of typical mistakes would make an interesting quiz?

Best regards,

Ally Gowans

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Ally....   You are right.  All good instructors need to be able to do that.  There is one difference, however.  That is that Ed became very good at that even when all he had to see was the line/loops .... not necessarily anything else... not the caster or the fly rod.  That does make it moe difficult, I submit.

Gordy

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Don Pendleton comments on the Big Bad Loop as he reads the line, etc. :

Gordy,

 

Pretty sure the caster was slipping line into his back cast.  I've seen this in beginners trying to gain distance to their fly placement.

 

Don Pendleton

 

From: SOON LEE [soonleemd@xxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2010 11:21 AM
To: Gordy Hill
Subject: Re: Correction / Spey question / Article / LOOP FACES

Hi Gordy,

 

In response to "SPEY QUESTION" below, I studied switch rod-casting earlier this year using largely lines from my single-hand collection and reported my observations to Kirk's THCI study group. My conclusions were presented at the end. Feel free to edit this posting if you feel it is appropriate for this master study group. I am sure Kirk will welcome this group's comments.

 

Soon.

 

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- 
Hello Kirk,
 
Thanks to Juergen, Craig N. and Craig B. for their input on my posting of Dec 10 regarding my switch rod below. With their guidelines in mind I have tested my switch rod over several sessions at a local golf course pond. I am only able to try out the switch rod using fly lines in my possession, that is to say, lines meant for single-handed rods. My attempt in this exercise was to determine the optimum load for best casting performance with the ACR switch rod (10' 6", labeled "6 wt"). This optimal load is my personal preference and may vary from that preferred by another caster.

Overhead casting:
I tested the rod with single hand lines, including  DT#6, WF#7, DT#7, WF#8; all WF lines with bellies 40' or more.
It cast best with DT#6 line with regular 9' monofilament leader, line carry at 40' (40' of line outside the tip top), load estimated at 220 grains.
 
Traditional spey casting:
I used single hand lines only, including WF#7, DT#7, WF#8, with attached Airflo trout PolyLeader 5' (10 grains) plus 5' monofilament tippet.
Best with WF#8 with 5' PolyLeader. Total load of line carry at 45' plus 5' PolyLeader estimated at 340 grains.
 
Skagit casting:
I did not have a suitable Skagit line. I used instead a 30' floating shooting head WF#11 at 330 grains. To this I attached various sink tips, including Rio T11 8' (88 grains), T11 12' (132 grains), Airflo salmon PolyLeader intermediate 14' (65 grains) or Airflo salmon PolyLeader extra super fast sinking 14' (115 grains), plus 5' monofilament tippet.
With the 30' shooting head outside the tip top, it worked best combined with T11 8'.
 
Scandi casting:
I did not have a suitable Scandi line. I used instead a 30' floating shooting head WF#10 at 280 grains. To this I attached various leaders, including Rio VersiLeader floating 10' (35 grains), Airflo Polyleader floating 14' (55 grains), plus 5' monofilament tippet.
With the 30' shooting head outside the tip top, it worked best combined with Airflo PolyLeader floating 14'. Total load 335 grains.

With the above observations I will try to answer my own questions below:


I have a Gary Anderson switch rod 10' 6", 6-piece. It is labelled thus:
ACR  1066-6  SW; 10' 6"  #6wt.

If I intend only to cast overhead on a fishing trip what line should I bring along?
A SH DT6 wt. line; line carry at 40'. Approx. 220 grains.
 
If I intend to use traditional spey casting techniques only which line should I have on my rod?
A TH S6 wt. line, line carry at 45'. Alternatively use SH DT8 wt. or WF8 wt. long belly. Approx. 340 grains.

If I am in the NW for Skagit style spey which line should I look for?
A compact Skagit line (not including sink tip) with load almost that for traditional spey casting. Alternatively use SH shooting head 11 wt. Approx. 330 grains.

If I go for a Scandi set-up which line should I get?
A compact Scandi line plus polyleader, the total load of which is similar to that for traditional spey casting. Alternatively use SH shooting head 10 wt. plus polyleader. Approx. 335 grains.

If I am undecided how I would be fishing on the next trip which one line should I carry that will adapt best to all the above needs?
The Scandi set-up is probably more adaptable than any of the others.
 
It will help if the recommendations include head length and grain weight.
 
 
Conclusion: It seems to me that when a label on a switch rod reads 6 wt. it means casting overhead with SH 6 wt. line or casting traditional spey with TH 6 wt line.
My switch rod at 10' 6" casts optimally with a line carry of 45' rather than the 55'-60' optimally carried by a 14-15 ft. spey rod.
I can probably pick a Skagit line (excluding sink tip) or a Scandi set-up (line plus polyleader) for a switch rod by knowing the load that works best for traditional spey casting. The Skagit line or the Scandi set-up will have the same, or a little less, load.
For a switch rod I can get by using only SH fly lines. (For regular spey rods, modern spey lines are superior to SH DT fly lines).
 
I hope my conclusions are reasonable,
 
Soon.

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---- Original Message -----

From: Gordy Hill

To: Soon Lee

Sent: Friday, April 09, 2010 10:16 AM

Subject: Correction / Spey question / Article / LOOP FACES

Soon & Group...

Correction from Bruce Richards in answer to Mark Milkovitch .  ( Note the new attachment reflecting the answer.)  G. :-

Bruce,

Would you mind double checking something for me.  I took another look at the "Milkovich" chart which I believe you sent to Gordy in response to my chart.  I think we are saying the same thing - I too am accelerating by 1⁰ per second - beyond that I simply giving the cumulative degrees travelled from beginning of the cast through that second in order to get a visual of where the rod would be on a cast that lets say utilized 90⁰ or 120⁰ from start to finish rather than reporting how many degrees the rod travelled during that one second as you did.  Thanks Bruce I appreciate the help.

Mark

Hi Mark, good catch. I did graph the cumulative change, which will yield an exponential accel. increase. I've corrected that, it now shows the correct, constant accel. you intended to show.

 

My apologies, I was in a hurry and didn't spent the time I should have to get this right! Please let the others know....

Regards,

Bruce

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                                                                  SPEY QUESTION

 

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From Gary Davison in answer to Lou Bruno's question on Spey tackle :

 

"Gordy,

I have a 10'6" switch rod, I use shooting heads, of two different lengths
(longest is 28') and weights. I limit my casts to the underhand cast, and
the forward spey. Is it possible to use a short belly spey line with this
rod length so I can use more casting options and not have to strip my line
as often on the retrieve? Plus I find using my longer spey rod with the
longer belly line to be more enjoyable to cast!

 

I thought about asking the rod manufacturer but thought it might be a good
question for the group.

Thanks,

Lou "

 

Gordy,

 

To answer  Lou Bruno's question on Spey Line with regards to CND Gravity Point Spey Lines.

 

As an estimate I would say for this size rod 10'6" in length you would probably require a gain weight line of 350 to 500 grains.  However this all depends on the rods rating. Usually a grain weight should be given on the rod.

This is just an estimate on my part. 

 

For a Spey line ranging with this grain weight you are looking at a 4/5/6/7 weight spey lines.

 

I would recommend the following options with regards to GPS (CND Gravity Point Spey Lines) Floating

GPS4/5F line which has a 50'belly total length of the line is 110' 20lb core.  (grain weight is 355)

GPS5/6F line which has a 55' belly, total length of the line is 115' 20lb core.  (grain weight is 432)

GPS6/7F line which has a 60' belly, total length of the line is 120' 20lb core.  (grain weight is 512)

 

Note: These lines come with 20 floating tip,  you can interchange the tips as needed for the strike zone needed.

Intermediate Tip's 18' length

Type 3 and Type 6 Tips 15' lengths

 

This is just one line example.  There are other to choose from but this will give you a general idea of what to expect out of a Spey line for these type switch rods.  Look at the lighter range lines.  Hopefully your rod will indicate what grain weight it is best suited.

 

I hope this helps

? 

All the best ? ? ? ?

Gary Davison

 

Gulf Coast Spey

Gulf Coast School of Fly Casting

 

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From Lou Bruno :

 

Gordy,

My thanks to Aaron Reimer and Dave Jacobson for sending me some very good information. I didn't want to spend the cash on the longer belly line for a switch rod and not have it help. I will be trying the longer belly lines as suggested. Being able to use a longer belly line makes the switch rod more versatile. I do not have large rivers for the longer rod, I wanted to be able to incorporate the more traditional spey type cast.

Thanks

Lou

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COMMENT:   Lou raises a good point.  These lines are more expensive than ever.  For that reason, I consider it a luxury to be able to work with someone who has a whole wardrobe full of them to try.  I have such a range of fly lines for single hand casting, but only a few Spey lines.

Gordy

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                                                                  SOON LEE'S ARTICLE

 

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Request from Paul Rose :

 

Gordy I am really enjoying the quizzes and email's. I am new to the group and it is like having a new casting magazine subscription. I noted an article mentioned on "Teaching Flycasting" published in the Loop by Soon Lee but was unable to locate it Do you have a contact for Soon for me to request a copy? I am in need of some basic material such as this to help instruct my clients. Any other suggestions? PDF files or downloads out there you recommend?  

--
Capt. Paul Rose
www.carolinabonefishing.com

 

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Paul...

 

It is archived in the list of LOOP articles on the FFF Website.

 

Also:   Soon's email address:   soonleemd@xxxxxxx

 

Walter Simberski has archived most of the important Study Group messages from the past several years.  Others may be doing the same thing.

 

Eventually, we plan to have an official FFF Wiki set up ( Like Wikipedia but limited to FFF Instructors ) with all of this information and more .... an up to date, living thing by virtue of new contributions and editing, etc.

 

At this point in your Master preparations, I'd suggest that you go to the FFF Website and access all of the loop articles from past years and study them.  Gold to be mined there !!!  This in addition to your study of the Master Prep. Study Guide and selected books and reading material listed there.

 

Gordy

 

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                                                                LOOP FACES

 

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Here is a challenge from Mac Brown.  I like his term, "loop faces" !  :-

 

Hi Gordy,

        Thought the quick drawing above may be of interest for the group since you brought up loop faces the other day about Steve throwing hairpin shaped loops. You also had a great thread of tension at the rod tip with Soon Lee's thread. Lets see what the group has to offer on the 4 combos of loop faces of the sketch. What does it tell us about the cast? How do you make the four shapes during the cast? Thought it might be a good exercise the group.

Take care, Mac

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Mac ...  I placed your drawings in an attachment.     G.

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