Bad loop analysis / Loop shapes, cont'd

The ?big bad loop? I think is easy to explain. Note the disturbance on the water. Note that the top leg is basically the leader. The loop is L shaped rather than square. Here the line was wrenched very quickly off the water the launch direction was roughly that indicated by the leader and the rod continued to rotate downwards behind. The right angle hinge effect is largely due to the different characteristics of the leader material and the fly line. This shape of loop and far worse is not uncommon for raw beginners and it well illustrates the usual problem of the rod tip rotating downwards (not backwards!).

Best regards,

Ally Gowans

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Ally .... Of course. He had to rotate that rod downwards on the back cast or he would not likely have had the big loop in the first place ..... It is the square appearance which is bizarre . I'm still convinced that that aspect is partly an optical illusion produced by big wide round loop curving around directly toward the camera so the rounded end appears fairly vertical and straight. (IF you turn a hula-hoop on edge facing directly toward you, it appears to be a straight line structure.)

Reading the disturbance on the water is a brilliant ploy ! I hadn't thought of that. I suspect that comes from your years of experience as a Spey caster.

Ed Jaworowski claimed that he can tell what the caster did by just looking at the loop. At one teaching session I was amazed at how good he was at doing that. HOWEVER, he was looking at loops in progress. That is very different from analysis of a loop in a still picture.

Ed says that he learned the technique of studying the line from Lefty in his years working with him. He feels that the "...whole key to diagnosing casting problems is what I refer to as 'reading the line,' seeing the result and working back to the cause". *

I placed that "Big Bad Loop" picture again in an attachment to make this discussion easier for all to follow.

I went out and tried my best to make a square back cast loop and couldn't really do it.

* TROUBLESHOOTING THE CAST, by Ed Jaworowski, Stackpole Books, 1999, ISBN 0-8117-2942-7 Preface & p. 1.

Gordy

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LOOP SHAPES, CONT'D

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From Tony Loader. (I also repeated the "Loop Faces" diagram in a second attachment) G. :

Hi Gordy,

Mac's question has seen me out in the field for quite some time, trying to replicate those loop shapes. Lots of variables so probably many answers. It's difficult to see the shape of my own loops. Increasingly so, the further away they get.

For my two cents and all other things (e.g loop plane) being equal, loop shape seems to be significantly affected by tip path, stop, loop speed, line length and fly/leader drag characteristics, the latter three of which modulate tension on both legs of the loop and may cause the loop's shape to change ("morph") over time.

To make the first shape, I try to simply observe the "Essentials" of a straight-line cast with moderate loop speed and a positive, but not overly abrupt, stop. Tension is relatively low. Alternatively, I find that I can make my narrowest parallel loops by executing a careful pick-up from water with a very deliberate undercut (snap) rather than a stop

I come closest to the second shape with a slightly domed tip path (e.g. a too wide arc), a firm stop, higher loop speed and thus more tension.

The third shape appears for me when I add a haul and get the loop moving fast. The fly leg appears not to be able to enter the loop face quickly enough thus increasing tension on the top of the loop and pulling the rod leg towards the fly leg. Overall tension is high.

This third shape morphs into the fourth as the fly leg shortens and mass and tension decrease.

Just my unscientific thoughts. I look forward to enlightenment from Mac.

Regards,

Tony.

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From David Lambert :

Gordy -

I'm not sure I'm clear on your comment about not being able seeing the loop face shape. I see them well enough to judge shape, always have. Maybe we're not talking about viewing the same thing?? I can see the face pretty well, at least well enough to judge them. Mac and I've been talking about this fro awhile. Can others not see loop shape of their own loops? Unclear here about your comment.

Also, in trying to parse your comment on the big bad loop, I remembered I had blown up this photo from one shot at a much greater distance. Here's the original. I don't think it's due to the POV of camera or the angle. Could be wrong, though. In the blow up, I noted the angle rip-line where the caster stripped the shape from the water and the angle of his wrist and rod. Still can't reproduce it though. thoughts welcome.

D
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David,

Remember, I said I could see most of my loop shapes in general.... what I meant was that I have trouble picking out differences in the shapes of the small loops. Especially with long casts (as Tony Loader noted.)

I can tell if I have a pointed loop .... but to really tell the shape of the point ? I've never been sure I could do that. As I said, when Tom White and I took pics of our own loops we were often surprised at their appearance from the vantage point of the camera.

Re the "Big Bad Loop"-

You and Ally both caught the rip line on the water. Says a lot. I missed that.

I'll include your original photo in an attachment.

Gordy

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From Soon Lee :

Gordy,

I find it very difficult to discuss loop shape with words only. I'd like to try to discuss Mac Brown's loop shapes (faces) A, B, C, and D using Ally Gowan's illustration of Lovoll's graphics. To facilitate this discussion I am defining "stop" to include the duration of time beginning with line launch ("Approximate line launch" in Ally's illustration) and ending with rod at holding position ("RSP-3, holding position" in Ally's illustration).

Loop shape A, a standard tight loop with parallel legs: straight line path of the rod tip determines a straight upper leg; an unimpeded "stop" determines a rounded front end and the loop size; rod tip at holding position RSP-3 determines profile of the lower leg.

Loop shape B: straight line path of the rod tip determines a straight upper leg; as soon as the "stop" begins a quick momentary (forward and upward?) thrust of additional force/tension of the rod tip develops the snout; rod at holding position RSP-3 determines profile of the lower leg.

Loop shape C: straight line path of the rod tip determines the straight upper leg; as soon as the "stop" begins the rod tip is dipped momentarily downwards to develop a reverse snout; rod at holding position RSP-3 determines profile of the lower leg.

Loop shape D: straight line path of the rod tip determines a straight upper leg; at the "stop" RSP-1 is at/near the line-launch point to form a wedged front end; rod at holding position RSP-3 determines profile of the lower leg.

Allow me to add a loop shape E, where the distance caster in his aggressive follow-through after line-launch forces the rod tip to scribe an exaggerated counterflex, followed by a significant rebound, and ending with a rod holding position RSP-3 above the nadir of the counterflex. Such a loop shape (approximating the profile of a curve-bladed meat cleaver) is eventually morphed by the "sucking" energy (what a delightful way of describing this) of the front end of the loop. Straight line path of the rod tip determines a straight upper leg; the hyperbolized "stop" creates the meat cleaver loop profile, later attenuated; rod holding position RSP-3 determines profile of the lower leg after line has morphed.

I'd like to suggest that defining "stop" as that duration of time between line launch and rod at final holding position simplifies discussions on loop dynamics. "Stop" is not one instant of time. "Stop" should not mean only a physical cessation of motion. Path of the rod tip in the casting stroke determines the profile of the top leg of a loop. The "stop" determines loop size and loop shape. Final rod holding position determines profile of the lower leg, reflecting damping action of the rod tip and purposeful manipulation of the rod tip by the caster.

I suspect that RSP-3 is a misnomer because the weight of fly line carried by the rod tip at final holding position will hardly allow a rod straight position.

My understanding of Mac Brown's loop shapes...... I do not profess to be competent to demonstrate them.

Soon.

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Soon... I can't make all those loop shapes either ..... but I'll keep an open mind and try to learn. G.