Mark
Surtees
Outback
Rigging Ltd
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mark ... That is the way it appears to me
as well. G.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From Mark Sedotti. My commments in his message in italics G.
:
Hi Gordy,
How are you? Hope
you're well.
I throw a lot further with a 9, 10, or 11
(depending on rod, even one #14) wt. rod than I do with a 5 or 7 weight. I've
thought about this, because others have told me the same thing that you stated
here.
I don't think it's physical weight of the outfit. I
think it just comes down to what you're used to casting. What you cast alot. I
haven't used a 5 wt. a lot in my life. I've used 9 through 11's countless times,
both in fishing and in practicing. I have cast 7's lots too. So that's close to
what I do with the heavier rods. So I won't count that. Or maybe, that just
reinforces my point.
I'm very strong, but I'm not very big. I
really think it's just what I've been accustomed to casting. That's
all.
I think you
have the answer right there !
As far
as hooking or not hooking fish with longer rods (and on longer
casts) Years ago I'd run into striper anglers who (and it was more
than one or two) mentioned that they had these tremendous hook up ratios.
Like they said they hooked up with 95% of the fish that hit.
I told them I
wasn't close to that, and it got me to scratching my head. Well, after I
saw some of them cast it started to dawn on me. Most didn't cast, when fishing,
more than 30 ft. distant. Their fish "hit" 10 and 20 feet. away. Me, I was out
on these long casts, with a lot of line out there, and that
line was bowing on the water too, and it's in current etc. No wonder.
A lot of it WAS the line stretch. (besides getting that line to also straighten
before, or on the set too) They had very little (as well as little bow) and man,
I had a lot of stretch to contend with. So what can I tell you. I learned
to set as best as I could. Lighter wire, smaller hooks is good
too.
When I fish in Arkansas at night, I make lots of long casts
with a floating line. Big browns are spooky and won't hit if they are remotely
close to you (when you're wading). They also are notorious for following a fly a
ways before taking as well. Hence, the reason for the long casts. It's gotten so
that I use a 9ft. "stretchless" flourocarbon leader, and don't use hooks larger
than a #4 with my streamers. With a stretching mono leader and/or #2 or larger
hook my missed hook ups go WAY, way up! Live (fish) and
learn.
All makes
good sense, Mark.
G.
Best
Regards,
Mark
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From Mark Surtees :
Sorry
Gordy, I?m still puzzled, if this is what Lefty says?.
the distance the rod tip speeds up
and stops at the end of a cast, determines the size of the loop.
?.and
he?s not referring to the casting stroke length then what ?distance? is he
referring to ?
I?ve
just cast my MPR between the kitchen and the living room, fixed length of line,
I?ve done it fast and I?ve done it slow and I?ve done it with a short casting
stoke and a long casting stroke and my loop hasn?t changed one iota?If Lefty is
right and your interpretation is correct then this should not be possible, my
loop should widen as I increase the length of the casting stroke?. but it
doesn?t.
What
am I missing here ?
Mark
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mark...
I think Lefty is referring to the "speed-up-and-stop" as
part of the overall casting stroke.... not in addition to
it. Actually, the loop only widens if you do as many casters do while
dipping your rod tip during that phase of the cast. The farther you dip
your rod tip down, the farther from the prior path of the rod tip your tip is at
the point of "unloading" as the line overtakes the rod tip at
RSP.
Unload
with RSP close to the path of the oncoming line and you get a small loop.
Unload far from that path and you get a wide loop.
In
other words, the "distance" he's talking about is the distance withiin the
stroke traveled by the casting hand (combo of translation and rotatory distance)
as the caster is making maximum effort.
As
Troy Miller explained, this and other word pictures we've discussed really don't
fit well with the concept of constant acceleration since they imply the use of a
seperate burst of power at the end of the stroke. While theoretically,
this should be damaging as a teaching ploy, for some reason as these instructors
used these terms the students did get tighter loops. A paradox, I must
admit !
Lefty
will be first to tell us that he doesn't pretend to be a physics expert .
He teaches with word pictures which seem to work well even if and when they fly
in the face of conventional wisdom.
Gordy
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From Bill Keister. My comments in italics
G. :
.
Gordy,
I would like to comment
on two subjects.
Marinaro's
Approach
I don't believe in
Marinaro's approach of pointing the rod straight at the fish. I too
like the Lefty's lip approach for setting the drag. I found your results
with the line tester very interesting. Don't know why you got the results
that you did. I would think that the test resolved it self into a static
test of the leader and knot strength when the rod is out of the equation.
With some of the newer drag systems that have very low, approaching zero,
startup inertia the reel's drag system would be almost removed from the
equation also.
Marinaro
didn't have our modern reels. I think you may be correct about
the static leader test along with knot strength.
G.
But, in the same vane, I
have the distinct impression that the inertia of the fly line itself plays
an important part in breaking the tippet in a dynamic situation. I have
had the experience, too many times, of breaking off a fish on a dry fly with
almost no perceptible feel of the fish. I raise the rod tip and the pop
off the fly and hardly feel the fish. And yet I can pull very hard on fish
once they are hooked up using the same tippet and terminal knot. I think
what is happening is that the fly line is lifted into the air storing a lot of
energy and it that stored energy breaks the tippet not the force of the
rod tip.
Right ! Also the inertia of the fly line partly be virtue of
water resistance. This is one reason that when a large pelagic runs out
all the line and backing, the system NEVER fails at the backing knot on the
reel. The tippet always breaks first. Happens much earlier in the
game if the fish runs way out and then turns. Then the resistance of
the line to the water increases a great deal.
These are reasons that when fishing for tuna and marlin we try to
miinimize line/water resistance by using very short fly lines with very
thin though strong backing (Spectra). That short cut-off fly
line just long enough to make the cast with attention to mass profile (same mass
for the cast + low diameter = sinking
line.)
Loop Size
I have a different view
of the process. I think mine is more mechanical where as Lefty''s is
biomechnically driven. He describs it as an outcome of the action
taken by the caster. As an instructor this is a very valid and valueble
point of view.
Good
point.
My view is as
fallows. At the moment of RSP the rod tip begins to travel at
a velosity slower than the oncoming line. The line is in free
flight. It is beginning to over run the rod tip. The traveling
line has not yet started to great tension in the fly line (or what is
going to become the rod leg of the loop). The rod tip conterflexes
rebounds and comes rest somewhere below the trajectory of the oncoming fly
line. It is not the path the rod tip took that dictates the size
of the loop. It is instead the displacement of the rod tip from the
trajectory of the fly line that dictates the size of the loop. I also
believe that this postion is a relativily nebulus position. It is the
location where the rod tip starts to become and effective anchor point for the
rod leg of the loop. This condition is not reached
immediately. It takes time for tension to build in the fly line as
the energy in what is becoming the rod leg is gives up energy to the the fly
leg. It is interesting to note that it is this tension which
guides the oncoming fly and keeps it flying straight during the remainder
of its flight.
I had to take
some time to digest that, Bill .... though having done so, it does make
sense. Another way to look at it.
The establishment of this
loop size is a very intersting thing to me. I really don't quit
understand how it works. Several observations seam to run counter
each other. Why does the counterflex wave travel along after the loop
maintaining what appears to be the same distance from the loop regardless
of the speed of the cast? Why does the size of the actual loop
appear to be uneffected by the a reach "mend" or touching the rod tip to
the ground and raising it back up, like Lefty does at
shows?
That's what I
meant by the word, "paradox".
Re. the reach
mend : If a true mend is made, it is repositioning the rod tip and line
after the cast. If it is repositioned during the cast, then we'd call
it by the term "reach cast". When done that way, it sure does appear that
this would change the loop
!
G.
Bill Keister