Walter & Group...
From Ally Gowans :
Hi
Gordy,
Best
regards,
Ally
Gowans
TIGHT LOOP
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When I answered Jim Bass' question on Lefty's description of the relationship between the size if the loop and the distance that the caster goes through the "speed-up-and-stop" I knew there would be some controversy. This from Troy Miller :
We have to be very careful about overemphasizing the importance of making a shorter speed-up-and-stop to effect a tighter loop.
What the student often hears is to rapidly pop the rod just before the stop. We all know what that results in. Particularly with a softer rod.
My preference is
to ask the student to make both the stroke and the unloading of the rod occur in
the straightest line they can achieve. Very few don?t understand that
goal. I also include visualizations of what the rod tip is doing to
reinforce the desired paths of it and the flyline.
Regards,
Troy
Miller
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Troy,
True ! Many of us used to teach it that way until Bruce Richards and Noel Perkins came up with the finding on the Casting Analyzer acceleration curves that it was smooth, constant acceleration that was most likely to yield a small, "tight" loop. Video analysis of casting also showed that an almost straight line path of the rod tip made by matching rod bend to casting arc was needed to do this.
I remember using the term, "accelerated acceleration" until the engineers and physicists corrected me and taught me that that was a non-scientific term to describe what they called, "third order progression" .....OK when talking about rockets but not what we did when fly casting.
With smooth, constant acceleration it is true that we have more rapid movement of the rod tip the closer we get to the rod straight position (RSP) after the rapid negative acceleration which we call the STOP. (The rod tip moving at greatest speed between the "stop" of the hand and RSP.)
It is not, however, due to a burst or spike of power application such as might be suggested by others who offered terms in the fly casting literature such as Macauley Lord's "pop-stop", Joan Wulff's "power-snap" and Mel Krieger's onomatapeic "whump".
Yet these were all effective teachers of fly casting who, along with Lefty and his "speed-up-and-stop" got good results as their students became capable of making tight loops.
One of Lefty's tricks is this: He'll tell a student who is making wide loops and cannot get them smaller, "On your next cast, try to hit your rod tip with your line ". That caster usually makes the tightest loop of his brief career !
I think that is because terms and word pictures get into student's brains in different ways. These teachers always went beyond their word descriptions during actual student instruction.
Many students, I've observed, really do not get the picture of the "straight line path of the rod tip" easily because thay don't see the relationship between rod bend to casting arc.......and they can't form tight loops, UNTIL :
They are taught to cast so that they can actually see what is happening.
One way of doing this is to have the student cast over a straight line with a horizontal rod plane. Many instructors use this method including Lefty and Joan. Some have modified this technique, but the basic idea of having the student witness the result of each cast made in this manner is hard to beat.
One method which works well for me is to place two parallel lines on the ground widely separated (say 6') and have the student try to keep his loop within those boundries. Once accomplished, I place the lines ever closer together until he can make nice tight loops on both forward and back casts. Then I have him do it as the rod is raised to off-horizontal plane and finally to an off-vertical plane. No fancy words or science involved. Lots of "trial & error - feedback" involved, particularly with youngsters.
That student learns to form a good match between rod bend and casting arc with smooth acceleration without having any idea of the actual physics or rod mechanics at all.
Another maneuver I sometimes use is this : The student can't make loops smaller than about 6'. I'll have him make them even bigger and bigger with greater doming of his rod path. Then I have him progressively go back to his 6' loops AND THEN HAVE HIM GO FURTHER WITH WHAT HE DID until smaller loops result.
Many things in our bag of tricks for students other than scientific or mechanical explanations.
Gordy
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From Mark Surtees on Lefty's statement :
Blimey??!!
I?m not surprised people took issue, at best it?s not very clear what he
means.
Loop
size is going to be principally determined by the tip path isn?t it ?. For a
fixed length of line we could cast fast or slow with a long or short casting
stroke and still vary the size of the loop. The loop front may be shaped by the
amount of counterflex, in which case the distance the rod tip travels whilst it
is slowing down may be relevant. The loop shape could be affected by thrust
after the stop or even morph as the tensions change between the rod leg and fly
leg..
When the
caster "speeds-up-and stops" over a long distance, his rod tip usually goes
through RSP a greater distance below the oncoming fly line. THAT MEANS
THAT THE ROD TIP WAS TRAVELING IN A MORE CONVEX PATH ...... ERGO A WIDE
LOOP.
I
don?t get this at all Gordy, surely we can vary our loop size whatever the
distance we are casting, we always ?speed up and stop? when we make a cast don?t
we ? whatever the casting stroke length might be.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mark,
Tip path ? A resounding YES !
Lefty wasn't talking about the casting distance or stroke length. Rather, I'm quite sure he meant that if you speed up to a stop briefly, you are more likely to achieve a tighter loop and that if you take more time to do that (over a greater rod tip travel distance) you will get a wider loop.
My interpretation is that when you perform the latter you are more likely to have the rod tip lower (farther apart) from the path of the oncoming line as it starts to overtake the rod tip at loop formation. That is due to increased convexity in the late path of the rod tip which will yield a larger loop.
I'm not passing judgment over whether or not these are good teaching or scientifically accurate terms. As with many of our "word pictures" some will be more confusing to our students than others.
Gordy
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
YELLOWSTONE
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tim Lawson sent an informative message on fishing the Yellowstone area. I place it in an attachment. G.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From Jerry Puckett :
| 
From: Lawson, Timothy P. DVM
[TLawson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 5:26 PM To: 'Gordy Hill' Subject: RE: Rod fighting angles / YELLOWSTONE / Lefty on loop size Gordy,
Yellowstone and the surrounding area is truly a magical place, and a mecca for flyfishing. Iâ??ve heard it said there are 2000 miles of rivers within a 50 mile radius of the town of West Yellowstone. Legendary names like Madison, Gallatin, Firehole, and Gibbon are all within a 30 minute drive. The Henryâ??s Fork, with its famed â??Railroad Ranchâ?? is 45 minutes away, and the Snakeâ??s South Fork is about a two hour drive.
The season in the Park opens every year on the Saturday of Memorial Day weekend. By the time of the Conclave this year (late August), the dry fly of choice will be anything terrestrial. Nymphs and streamers are effective anytime. In 2007 some of the rivers were closed during the time of the Conclave in Livingston, but the Conclave was in late July that year, which is typically the warmest month.. Weâ??ve had two good water years since. This year has been below average snowfall, so we need some Spring rain, but hopefully there will be no closures at Conclave time this year.
The predominant species are rainbows and browns, but there are Yellowstone cutthroats, brook trout, and mountain whitefish also. Several lakes in the Park (Grebe and Cascade) have grayling if you have a float tube and are not allergic to a 3 mile hike (itâ??s flat).
The northeast corner of the Park offers the Yellowstone, Gardiner, and Lamar rivers, as well as Slough and Soda Butte creeks. Theyâ??re on the opposite corner of the Park (from West Yellowstone), and about a two hour drive. Summer traffic through the Park is always a challenge, so leave early in the morning. Also, a bridge across the Gibbon river is being replaced, and last summer the main road to the northeast side was closed from 10 PM until 8 AM for construction. That means a 4 hour drive around Yellowstone Lake to reach the northeast side. Hopefully construction will be complete before the Conclave, because the northeast part of the Park offers the Lamar Valley, sometimes called â??Americaâ??s Serengetiâ?? because of its expanse and large herds of bison. This area is unparalleled in beauty, and has large Yellowstone cutts that are noted for their love of huge dry fly terrestrials. Lots of foam and legs !!
If thereâ??s a disadvantage to fishing this area, itâ??s that youâ??re in the corner of three States. That means you need a Park license to fish inside the Park (Wyoming), a Montana license to fish the main stretch of the Madison between Quake Lake and the town of Ennis, and an Idaho license to fish the South or Henryâ??s Fork of the Snake. The licenses are not expensive, but you have to plan a little ahead to be sure you have the right license.
To summarize, in late August I would plan to fish the Gallatin (anywhere) or the Madison between Quake Lake and Ennis (outside the Park). Unless we have an unusually cool Summer, the Firehole, Gibbon, and portion of the Madison within the Park will still be too warm due to summer temperatures and geothermal activity. The Quake Lake to Ennis stretch is 50 miles of fish factory, with lots of public access. If travel to the northeast corner is open, the Lamar Valley waters will be fishing great.
Iâ??m happy to talk to anyone who wants more specifics. Itâ??s the perfect location for our Conclave.
Tim Lawson
From: Gordy
Hill [mailto:masterstudygroup@xxxxxxxxxxx]
Tim & Group... Craig Buckbee sends a message about the angle of the fly rod while fighting a fish : gordy,
angle of rod at fight
when you say horizontal i see two ways the rod could be horizontal:
- rod bend same as in vertical position, just laid over. - rod bend near nil if tip is pointed at fish (were line enters water).
craig ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Craig, As soon as I had sent that detailed message, I regretted not having made that point more clear. Thanks for bringing it up. The horizontal rod position while fighting a fish (as I know you are aware) should not be out to the side (except when finishing off a tarpon as you actually try to pull the fish in the direction opposite the way he's trying to go in shallow water near the skiff.) I meant the more horizontal position of the rod while pointed at the fish . Not fully horizontal, but with the butt section at an angle of somewhere between 20 degrees and 40 degrees with repect to the surface of the water. When near the end of the battle with a big tarpon, we've found it very effective to plunge the rod deep into the water to try to pull the fish down from near the surface. Sometimes this results in destabilizing the creature which helps to break its "spirit" for an earlier release. Most tarpon fishermen refer to this move as the "down-&-dirty". I agree with Floyd Franke that it was probably Stu Apte who came up with that maneuver and term. Floyd included a photo of me starting to plunge my rod deep in order to do that, in his book. * FISH ON !.... by Floyd Franke, pp. 102, 103. Gordy ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guy Manning helps with this message complete with links to diagrams : Lou Bruno asks: What is the relationship with pressure exerted by the fly rod held at different angles (greater and less than 90 degrees) and line tension? Here are 4 pages from my Casting Instructors Workshop workbook where we talk about this: http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n163/grhen/cast/Slide1.png http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n163/grhen/cast/Slide2.png http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n163/grhen/cast/Slide3.png http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n163/grhen/cast/Slide4.png
Realize that the pounds of pressure figures are approximate for a lighter weight rod. But the point gets made. If you want to turn a fish you need to get the tip down to about 30 degrees for the best affect. Morsie once posted some photo on another site where they measured the pulls using a 12 wt rod and a spring scale. The figures changed due to the rod weight but the results of rod angle were the same.
Guy Manning ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guy, Thanks ! Makes it clear, and adds the concept of the fully horizontal rod for strip striking. Gordy ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From Bill Keister : Gordy,
Two anecdotes. While they are focused on
protecting leaders ie applying minimum force to the line they talk about
the dynamics of force application. In Vince Marinaro's A Modern Dry
Fly Code he discusses protecting light tippets. His recommendation is to
set the reel drag to just under the braking strength of the tippet. When a big
fish started to run he would point the rod directly at the fish taking the rod
out of the equation. Second either Hewitt or LaBranche, don't remember
which, in the discussion of using very light leaders for salmon were successful
by holding their rods exactly vertical to place the minimum strain on the
leader. Bill Keister
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bill... Interesting ! Re. Marinaro's recommendation to place the reel drag setting at "just under the breaking strength of the tippet" : Tom White and I read that. We rigged up with a leader with an 8X tippet. On Tom's line tester (a very sophisticated expensive model) we tested that tippet at 1.4 lbs breaking strength. We then set the drag at 1 lb. and that tippet broke every time. We then set the drag at 0.5 lbs. and the tippet still broke every time. This with the rod pointed exactly at the fly thus minimizing if not eliminating friction between the line and the guides. We even tried it by using knots such as the Bimini twist which tested at almost 95% break strength. I doubt Vincent Marinaro knew or used such knots for trout fishing. When big game fly fishing, even when using a 20 lb. tippet, I'll set the initial drag as Lefty does with my lips. That turns out to be a bit less than 2 lbs. Some of our tarpon guides will set the drag at as much as 4 lbs. Even that is only 1/5th the tippet breaking strength. One of the problems we encountered was the start-up inertia of the reel spool/drag system. Sometimes unforgiving. Placing a limber fly rod in the vertical position will go a long way to protecting the leader tippet for reasons that we've already discussed. To this may be added the additional virtue imparted by that very tip flexibility. This effectively blunts the "shock effect" of sudden application of force by the fish. (We all know that tippet material will break with less force if that force is rapidly applied ...... leading to the dictum: "What breaks the tippet is the jerk at the end of the line ".) Gordy ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
YELLOWSTONE ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From Gary Davison on YELLOWSTONE :
Gulf Coast School of Fly Casting
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gary,
I'll begin by saying that I've fished there many times. In the summer, the rivers may be closed to fishing if the water temperatures rise excessively. Anglers need to check that before going out each day.
When that happens, there is still some allowable (and good) fishing to be had in the streams at higher elevations. Point is that you need to be aware.
Gordy ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
LOOP SIZE
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This message came through on Al Crise's CCI Study Group from Jim Bass . I couldn't resist sharing it :
Gordy, on this week's quiz I ask for three things that change the loop size. After more consideration I am not sure there are three things. I think one thing can change the loop but is affected by many different things. Lefty says in his book "Presenting the Fly" Page 139, Rule #4, the distance the rod tip speeds up and stops at the end of a cast, determines the size of the loop. Please give me your opinion. Best, Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Jim... Lefty and I have discussed this in the past. Many took issue with that statement. I don't. My opinion is that, basically, Lefty is correct. why ? When the caster "speeds-up-and-stops" over a short distance, his rod tip usually goes through the Rod Straight Position (RSP) only a short distance below the oncoming fly line as loop formation begins. THAT MEANS THAT THE ROD TIP IS TRAVELING IN AN ALMOST STRAIGHT LINE PATH .....ERGO A SMALL LOOP. When the caster "speeds-up-and stops" over a long distance, his rod tip usually goes through RSP a greater distance below the oncoming fly line. THAT MEANS THAT THE ROD TIP WAS TRAVELING IN A MORE CONVEX PATH ...... ERGO A WIDE LOOP. By, "speed-up-and-stop" I think Lefty is taking the liberty of referring to the caster's movement; not that the rod tip actually stops, since the rod tip will go through RSP and continue on its way via counterflex. It then briefly stops prior to the following rebound. Boils down to the size of the loop being largely determined by the path of the rod tip . Since one can morph the loop and even change it's size to some extent right after RSP during counterflex, perhaps it is more correct to state that the size of the loop is determined by the path of the rod tip during and immediately after the cast. Another way to look at it is to consider that the size of the loop depends upon whether you unload the rod near or close to the oncoming line. We're really all talking about the same thing ! Gordy
Jim Bass IMPORTANT WARNING: This email (and any attachments) is only intended for the use of the person or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. You, the recipient, are obligated to maintain it in a safe, secure and confidential manner. Unauthorized redisclosure or failure to maintain confidentiality may subject you to federal and state penalties. If you are not the intended recipient, please immediately notify us by return email, and delete this message from your computer. |
