Quiz answers, More

Here is an example of how we can use critique of answers to go a bit beyond the topic at hand to provide more information. This answer sheet from Michael Gallert. My comments in italics. Gordy.

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1.) Give us your description of DRIFT.

A) un-powered movement of the rod, in the same direction, after of the stop. Yes.

2.) What (if anything) can it accomplish ?

A) Increase stroke length. Agree.

3.)   When, during the casting stroke, is the rod tip moving at its fastest rate ?

A) Just prior to the stop.   That is usually the point of max load ... however, the rod tip is moving fastest between the stop and RSP.

I'm using the end point of the casting stroke as the start of loop formation.

Some consider the finish of the casting stroke as the STOP of the hand. With that definition, you would be correct .... however, it remains true that the rod tip will be moving even faster after the stop.

4.)   At what point do you think loop formation begins ?

A) At the stop, is the short answer.    Close, but not quite. About 0.1 sec. after the stop.   This is when the rod is at the Rod Straight Position. It is the point where the line starts to overtake the rod tip......ergo, loop formation.

5.)   What is your idea of the meaning of the term, CREEP ?

A) Un-powered movement of the rod after the stop, in the opposite direction, but before the line leader has nearly straightened,

Yes. Important to note that it results in shortening available stroke length and casting arc for the following cast. (You did that, below in your answer to question 7.) .

Also, new casters will sometimes creep even after the loop has unfurled..... same result = a tail.

6.)   Do you think CREEP is always a fault ?

A) yes.    Most experts would agree with you.

7.)   What happens when a caster creeps ?

A) They shorten the stroke length. ( compared to the line length)   True (with most definition models) ..... also, creep diminishes available casting arc.

8.) You have taken a high speed video of you friend's forward cast. You picked out one frame which showed the point of maximum load. How did you pick out that particular frame ?

A) Max load frame picked by going to the next frame where the rod has started to unload, and going back a frame.

Yes.

LOAD = BEND  / MAX LOAD = MAX BEND .

9.) When (if ever) would you purposely cast with different timing of the forward cast from that of the back cast.

A) Wind. Head wind or tail wind.    Yes.

10.) You just made a forward cast .... but you didn't stop. Rather, you simply slowed your rod.

           a. Will your rod unload anyway ?

A) Yes    Agree.

           b. Was it possible to form a loop ?

A) Yes    Agree.

11.) What is meant by the term COUNTERFLEX ?

A) The back and forth movement of the rod tip after the stop.

Counterflex is involved in the back and forth movement of the rod after RSP.

The back and forth motion is a combination of counterflex in which the rod flexes in the direction opposite that of the of the flex produced by rod loading after the rod straightens and the loop starts to form. After that, the rod bends back toward RSP as rebound.

12.) Is it the same thing as REBOUND ?

A) I'd say yes   Rebound occurs after counterflex and in the opposite direction.

13.) You just made a high trajectory back cast. Using exactly the same rod plane, you made a forward cast with trajectory parallel to the water. What happened to the loop ?

A) .............If you allow the line to nearly straighten during the backcast, the forward "Loop" should be unaffected.

This is an example of casting with less than 180 degrees between the line plane (trajectory) of the back cast and that of the forward cast.   If you do that and don't change rod planes between strokes a tail results.

( Check out the "Box exercises" depicted as casting diagrams in Mac Brown's CASTING ANGLES, pp97-107. In particular, Fig. 4.23 - M, p. 103.    (Hand path unchanged, high back cast followed by straight forward cast = less than 180 degrees between them = tail.))

14.) Your casting stroke and casting arc are too short for the amount of line carried out of the rod tip. Describe the resulting loop.

A) Tailed or Crossed, if formed at all.

I like this answer..... if sufficient application of power to form a loop, it will tail. If insufficient to form a loop = collapsed cast and NO LOOP.

15.) You purposely made a forward cast with increased casting arc and resulting convex path of the rod tip at the beginning of your stroke, then accomplished an almost straight line path of the rod tip until the conclusion of your stroke as you unloaded the rod with the rod tip a short distance from the oncoming line.

           a. What happens to your loop ?

A) The loop is wide, oval shaped.

Wide, yes. Not oval, however.

If you place lots of rotatory movement at the very start of this cast, the rod tip will move in a convex path .... then more straight.  This is a great way to form a wide loop (as you said). Rather than being oval, however, the fly leg (upper leg) will be up high and the rod leg (lower leg) fairly straight. Sometimes done to place that fly leg way up to allow the wind from behind to help kite it ahead.     G.

           b. When (if ever) would you do that ?

A) Tail wind or With weighted line or heavy flies or a cast of flies.

Your first two words formed a correct answer.

There is a better way to do this when casting weighted flies (see below.)

16.) At another time and under different conditions, you made a cast with an almost straight line path of the rod tip until the end of your stroke at which point you applied enough convexity of your rod tip path to unload the rod with the tip well below the oncoming line.

           a. What loop resulted ?    A controlled wide loop with the fly leg fairly straight and the rod leg lower.         G.

A)

           b. When, (if ever) would you do that ?

A) Tuck cast, to get the pattern to land on the surface first

I'd use the cast I described in 16.) when casting weighted flies. (As Lefty Kreh once said, "nothing good happens when you cast heavy flies with tight loops." )

I look at the TUCK CAST or FLY FIRST CAST as a highly powered vertical curve cast.

(Best description and really great photos of the tuck cast in Lefty Kreh's, CASTING WITH LEFTY KREH, pp. 294-308.

and, THE CAST, by Ed Jaworoski, pp.149-150.

Also see: Jason Borger's Nature of Fly Casting, pp. 188-189.)    G.

17.) What is likely to happen if you apply a spike of power to your haul very early in the stroke ?

A) Tailing loop.   Yes.

18.) Why ?

A) Concave path of the rod tip.   Agree.

19.) Your new casting student asks your advice on what rod to purchase for his lessons. He's been told about fast action, medium action, and slow action rods. What do you advise him ?

A) Good question. I have no answer. It's late and I have a long day tomorrow. Lets say the slow action.

Problem in having new students learn first with a slow action rod is that they almost always use poor application of power resulting in tailing loops. (The soft action rod is easy to overpower early in the stroke. The resulting acceleration and rod bend are not continued, so the rod tip bends down then back up forming a concave rod tip path and a tail.)

I'd choose the medium action rod.

Having said that, I can see some value in having instructors have their students use soft rods in areas where those are likely to be the only ones they are likely to end up using when trout fishing. G.

20.) Give your reason (s) for this decision.

A) Once you master a slow action all other rods will come easy.

Hard to argue with that logic .... it is true.

However, when trying to have new students master the slow rod, you may be plagued with student frustration as they repeatedly throw tailing loops. That can lead to disappointment and an early sense of failure.

I'd rather have early success with medium action rods, then move to rods with different actions much later in the game. G.

Gordy

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From Frank Harford (My comments in italics.  Here we have some new word pictures to consider in answers to 5.), 7.) and 9.) G.

QUESTIONS:

1.)　 Give us your description of DRIFT.

Movement of the rod tip in the direction of the cast after the

stop               Agree.

2.)　　 What (if anything) can it accomplish ?

It can increase the length of the subsequent stroke and prevent

creep . You cannot drift and creep at the same time

                     Agree.    The caster CAN, however, drift and THEN creep, though this is unusual.

3.)　　 When, during the casting stroke,is the rod tip moving at its

fastest rate ?

Just before the stop .    I was surprised at the fact that many got that wrong. The rod tip is moving at its fastest between the stop and loop formation at RSP.

4.)　　 At what point do you think loopformation begins? .

Immediately after the stop . Darned close. One tenth of a second or so later at RSP or so close that we have not been able to separate it on video studies.

5.)　　 What is your idea of the meaningof the term, CREEP ?

Movement of the rod in the direction of the cast before

meaningful acceleration .    New wording. I agree fully !

6.)　　 Do you think CREEP is always afault ?

Yes   Most experts would agree.... not all.

7.)　　 What happens when a caster creeps?

He decreases the stroke length . The caster then often tries to

make up for this with an inappropriate application of power early in

the cast and forms a tailing loop .   Yes. Nice clear description.

8.)　 You have taken a high speed video of your friend's forward cast.　

You picked out one frame which showed the pointof maximum load.　 How

did you pick out that particular frame?

Where the rod is most bent .   Yes.

9.)　 When (if ever) would you purposely castwith different timing of

the forward cast from that of the backcast.

When shooting line.    You are the only one to have said that. It is true in that your timing must change when false casting when you add line by slipping line or shooting.   Also when dealing with a wind from behind or from in front.

10.)　 You just made a forward cast .... butyou didn't stop.　 Rather,

you simply slowed your rod.

　　　　　　　　　　 a.Will your rod unload anyway ?

Yes , eventually   Yes.

　　　　　　　　　　　b.　Was it possible to form a loop ?

Yes , a very wide one    Yes.

11.)　 What is meant by the term COUNTERFLEX?

Movement of the rod tip after the stop in the opposite

direction of the load       Just a bit later, after the Rod Straight Position. Between the stop and RSP, the rod is still bent in the direction mandated by the load from the inertia of the fly line. Of course that bend is diminishing very rapidly until RSP ...... THEN counterflex with the bend in the opposite direction.

12.)　 Is it the same thing as REBOUND?

No . Rebound is the return of he rod tip from the counterflex    Agree.

to the R S P

13.)　 You just made a high trajectory backcast.　 Using exactly the same

rod plane, you made a forward cast withtrajectory parallel to the

water.　 What happened to the loop?

It tailed    Yes.

14.)　 Your casting stroke and casting arcare too short for the amount

of line carried out of the rod tip.　 Describethe resulting loop.

A tailing loop    Yes

15.)　 You purposely made a forward cast with increased casting arc and

resulting convex path of the rod tip at the beginningof your stroke,

then accomplished an almost straight line path of the rod tipuntil the

conclusion of your stroke as you unloaded the rod with the rod tip

ashort distance from the oncoming line.

　　　　　　　　　　 a.What happens to your loop ?

If I understand this correctly , this should result in a tight

loop with an upward trajectory    This yields a wide loop with the fly leg up high and the rod leg fairly straight.

　　　　　　　　　　b.　When (if ever) would you do that ?

For a distance cast     I'd use it to allow the wind from behind to help "kite" the fly.

16.)　 At another time and under differentconditions, you made a cast

with an almost straight line path of the rod tipuntil the end of your

stroke at which point you applied enough convexity of yourrod tip path

to unload the rod with the tip well below the oncomingline.

　　　　　　　　　　a.　 What loop resulted ?

A wide loop with parallel legs     Wide loop, yes. Parallel legs ?...... not always. The fly leg is fairly straight and the rod leg dips down. The legs may well get nearer to parallel if the line speed is sufficient for the momentum of the loop to "morph" the dip in the rod leg by pulling it straighter.

　　　　　　　　　　b.　 When, (if ever) would you do that ?

Casting a heavy fly    Agree

17.)　 What is likely to happen if you apply a spike of power to your

haul very early in the stroke ?

A tailing loop    Yes.... In using the word "spike" I intended to convey the concept of brief high power which quickly diminishes. Many look at that as "inappropriate application of power"..

Some have the idea that it is the application of high power early in the stroke alone which causes the tail ... but that tail won't occur if the caster can maintain or (better yet) smoothly increase that power until the stop. When the caster does apply lots of power early in the stroke, he usually cannot maintain the high acceleration and rod bend which this produces. When he can no longer maintain it, acceleration and therefore rod bend decreases, there is a dip and return of the path of the rod tip....... a concave rod tip path and a tail.

18.)　 Why ?

It will load the rod early , causing a dip in the path of the

rod tip    Yes.   Load followed by some unloading during the stroke.

19.)　 Your new casting student asks youradvice on what rod to purchase

for his lessons.　 He's been told about fast action, medium action, and

slow action rods.　 What do you advise him?

Assuming the student is a beginner , I would advise a medium or

slow action rod    Most seasoned instructors preferred the medium action rod.

20.)　 Give your reason (s) for this decision.

A slow action rod will allow him/her to feel the rod load

better. It is also more forgiving i.e. it will absorb the shock waves

of an awkward beginners stroke . A compromise would be to get a medium

action rod and overline it     My own preference would be the medium action rod . Overlining it does help the early student to feel the load.

Check out my comment to Michael Gallert's answer to this question, above re the tendency for new students to overpower the soft rod and tail.

Gordy

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Now, to finish with a couple if interesting answers and statements of opinion from Dan Davala which I think deserve reading:

3.)   When, during the casting stroke, is the rod tip moving at its fastest rate ?

           At the point just prior to the stop.

IT IS BETWEEN THE STOP AND THE ROD STRAIGHT POSITION WHEN USING THE THE WORKING DEFINITION WHICH PLACES THE COMPLETION OF THE CASTING STROKE AT LOOP FORMATION (RSP).

CORRECT, IF YOU TAKE THE POSITION THAT THE CASTING STROKE IS COMPLETED AT THE STOP SINCE I DID USE THE WORDING,     "DURING THE CASTING STROKE." G.

4.)   At what point do you think loop formation begins ?

           Loop formation begins at the the VERY BEGINNING of the casting stroke. I say this because where the rod is stopped, drifted, or creeped to will at least partially determine the loop that will result on the next stroke, therefore loop formation begins at this point. Of course, the actual "loop" is formed after the stop at the end of the casting stroke, also known as the turnover point.

INTERESTING CONCEPT. OF COURSE, YOU ARE CORRECT THAT THE SIZE OF THE LOOP IS MAINLY DETERMINED BY THE PATH OF THE ROD TIP THROUGHOUT THE CASTING STROKE. MOST LOOK AT THE START OF LOOP FORMATION, HOWEVER, AS THE POINT AT WHICH THE FLY LINE ACTUALLY BEGINS TO OVERTAKE THE ROD TIP AND THAT IS SO CLOSE TO THE ROD STRAIGHT POSITION THAT WE HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO SEPARATE IT WITH STUDIES SO FAR DONE.    G.

   19.) Your new casting student asks your advice on what rod to purchase for his lessons. He's been told about fast action, medium action, and slow action rods. What do you advise him ?

           In general, I would recommend a medium/fast or fast action. My answer of course would vary depending on whether the student's focus was on saltwater/big water fly fishing (fast action), or smaller stream/freshwater fly fishing (medium/fast action).

20.) Give your reason (s) for this decision.

           In general, I have seen my students do better when casting medium/fast, or fast action rods. I know there are a lot of well intentioned warnings out there on popular fly fishing web sites that suggest a beginner should stay away from fast action rods, claiming that these rods require more precise timing, etc. etc. etc. Some of my students even appear scared at the idea of casting a fast action rod because of such claims. The simple truth is, all fly casting requires precise timing to maximize the efficiency of any given rod. In actual practice, I have seen more beginning students develop good loops and high line speed quicker when using faster action rods. If we teach them to properly load a rod, they usually have no problem loading a fast one.

I RESPECT YOUR ANSWER, SINCE YOU HAVE FORMED YOUR OPINION ON THE BASIS OF ACTUAL EXPERIENCE. AS WE TEACH WE ALL HAVE DIFFERENT OPINIONS WITH RESPECT TO MANY ISSUES AND WE USE DIFFERENT METHODS. AS LONG AS THEY WORK; WELL AND GOOD.

I SOMETIMES GET VERY GOOD RESULTS USING MEDIUM FAST RODS EVEN WHEN TEACHING NEW STUDENTS .....I STARTED DOING THAT BECAUSE I'M IN A SALT WATER ENVIRONMENT AND FELT THAT MY STUDENTS WOULD BE USING THAT TACKLE EARLY IN THE GAME ONCE THEY STARTED FISHING ..... AND ALL OF THEM WANTED TO DO THAT AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. FROM A PRACTICAL STANDPOINT IT WORKED, TOO, BECAUSE MANY OF THEM CAME WITH MEDIUM FAST OR FAST RODS UPON THE ADVICE FROM OR LOAN BY FRIENDS IN THE AREA.

MOST INSTRUCTORS HAVE FOUND THE PROBLEM OF DIFFICULTY WITH TAILING LOOPS WHEN EARLY STUDENTS USE VERY SOFT RODS. G.