Wrist movements / Leader material

Walter & Group...

From Gary Eaton:

Gordy, 

I believe the ADduction of the wrist is from anatomical position with the palms facing forward. This would be the motion of the part toward the saggital plane of the body. In this position, ulnar deviation. 

As a clinician, I much prefer the terms ulnar and radial deviation because so much of my evaluation is not in anatomic position but, in a palm down (pronated) position. 

As we know, the movement toward mid-line is ADduction as in the fingers moving toward the middle finger is considered digit ADduction. Spreading the fingers apart is ABduction. Though it has been more than two decades since my first medical school anatomy class, they must have pounded something into me that was reinforced in residency and fellowship.

Perhaps you will recall my proposal for incorporating anatomical terms from about three years ago on this forum. It was blasted by most as "too technical", yet here we are again. 

Gary Eaton

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Gary....

 

Interesting ways of looking at these terms.  You are correct from a classical anatomical standpoint.

 

  All depends upon whether you describe adduction and abduction with the hand palm up or palm down.  Classic anatomists do so with the palms facing up (or out )  Surgeons often look at it with the palms down. (Why ?????)

 

As you well know, the radius bone is on the thenar (thumb) side.  The ulna bone on the hypothenar (fifth digit) side.  So deviation in the direction of the thumb would be radial deviation or ADduction of the wrist as we see it and ABduction as the classic anatomist looks at it.

 

Deviation in the opposite direction is toward the ulna in the direction of the fifth digit and therefore a direction opposite that of the thumb. This would be ulnar deviation or ABduction of the wrist by that reasoning.  Not correct as the anatomist sees it.

 

We, in orthopaedic surgery, much prefer the terms RADIAL DEVIATION and ULNAR DEVIATION as being more accurate and easier to remember if you simply remember the positions of the radius and ulna of the forearm.  That agrees with your clinical statement.

 

Problem with adduction and abduction as terms is that this can also refer to spreading the digits and bringing them together, as you point out.  Some anatomists do relate the motion to the middle digit and some do not.  (One might ask them to describe abduction / adduction of the middle finger alone.)

 

 

Too technical ?  YES.   That is why I agreed to oversimplify the whole thing in my short answer to Jim Valle !

 

Gordy

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Reply from Jim Valle:

Gordy,

Now what’s your short answer?

(Just couldn’t resist)

Jim

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jim:  You're on .... here goes:

 

ABduction  -  Angled toward thumb.  (Palm up) *

ADduction  -  Angled away from thumb.  "       "      *

Flexion  -  bent down.

Extension -  Cocked back.

Torque  -  Twist.

Pronation  - Twist in, palm down.

Supination - Twist out, palm up.

Radial deviation - Angled thumbward.

Ulnar deviation - Angled toward fifth finger.

 

* Caveat:  Classic anatomists and surgeons often look at these terms differently.  Most clinicians and surgeons much prefer the terms "Ulnar deviation" and "Radial deviation" to "ABduction" and "ADduction".

Gordy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gary Meyer points out how confusing this can be:

Gordy,

I always get these terms mixed up but to me something seems

contradictory between your definitions and Joan's example.

You wrote:

"I. Wrist bends :

a. ADDUCTION is deviating the wrist IN THE DIRECTION OF THE THUMB

(Orthopaedists call this "radial deviation") With most other joints,

adduction, in general, means bringing the limb toward the center of the

body.)

b. Abduction is the opposite. (Deviating the wrist in the

direction opposite that of the thumb.("Ulnar deviation") With most

other joints, abduction means bring the limb away from the center of

the body.)"

But then you wrote....

"As you know, Joan Wulff teaches casters to finish the forward stroke

with the wrist bent in the direction OPPOSITE that of the thumb (ulnar

deviation with no flexion or extension or rotation.) The wrist ends up

in ADDUCTION."

Isn't adduction ulnar deviation?

Gary

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gary .... As the anatomist uses the term, YES.  ADDuction is deviation toward the 5th finger (away from the thumb while ABDuction is deviation in the direction of the thumb.

So, ADDUCTION is ulnar deviation and ABDUCTION is radial deviation.

Now I think you can see why the terms ulnar deviation and radial deviation are preferred by most of us.

Thanks !!

Gordy

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                                                                                   Material for Leader Connection

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Recalling our discussions on making a smooth and very strong connection between the fly line and the butt section of a big game leader,  Lefty advised using a material called BUTT LEADER,  by Gudebrod.  You may also recall Dan Blanton describing just how to make this splice on his website.

I couldn't find the stuff until a few days ago.  For those interested who might have the same problem, I finally found it at:  Versitex of America LTD, 3545 Schuylkill Rd., Spring City, PA 19475 :  email - sales@xxxxxxxxxxxx ..

It is hollow braided dacron mono.  Comes in 50lb. and 30 lb. test.  The 50 lb. material handles the end of the fly line and / or 50 lb nylon mono butt section just fine.

Gordy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~