Parallel loop legs / Physics v. Zen

Walter & Group....

Note attachments:   1. Bruce Richard's comments in Walter Simberski's text.

                                  2. Bruce's attachment: Rod flex-RSP.xls  (Graph).

                                  3. Walter's & Bruce's comments.

                                  4. Ally Gowan's diagram of PARALLEL LOOP LEGS  (pdf)

                                  5. Ally's diagram of loop legs out of parallel. (pdf)

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                                                               PARALLEL LOOP LEGS

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From Ally Gowans:

Hi Gordy/Bruce,

 

I have attached a couple of quick sketches of loops because I think that many people have some difficulty discerning between “good” parallel loops and loops that are not acceptable in tests. Of course the difficult part is knowing the finer points of that judgement. Anyway for a start I have attached a couple of sketches of loops, classic idealised examples and others. If you and Bruce can spare a minute to look at them and make any comments that would be appreciated.

 

Best wishes,

Ally Gowans

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Ally ....   They are right on target !!!    Well done.     Gordy

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From Bruce Richards:

Hi Ally,

Nice drawings! I especially like the one of "parallel leg loops" (I'd

prefer we called them that, "parallel loops" isn't really accurate). I'd

like to see the "non-parallel leg loops" a bit more exaggerated, some are

quite close to parallel... I'd clearly show an exaggerated tailing loop,

big loop, and loop out of plane horizontally, from above....

Bruce

Scientific Anglers/3M

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Bruce...   Good suggestion.  An exaggerated drawing would help make the point.     G.

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                                                                    PHYSICS / ZEN

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Message on our postings of fly casting physics by Mac Brown My brief comments in red italics in his text   G. :-

Hi Gordy,

 

The posts have been interesting to say the least from Walter, Server, Bruce, and Troy on the physics stuff. I respect all of their writings and think many of their analogies are helpful for creating a deeper understanding of casting. Big difference when looking at tip versus butt of the rod which is understandable for some slight disagreement. I tend to come up with things more from the Zen side of things as you say Gordy. The "what if" side of our understanding of casting seems to come back to our physical understanding of the complete system (physics).

 

I have a question regarding the rod tip that I think the group may shed some light. Many of the posts presently talk about the theoretical RSP (zero force in the rod) and state that it decelerates post RSP. I do not have any such studies to prove other wise-but it seems to me that there may be an instant that the counter-flex is still accelerating the line. The slow motion videos seem to prove that the actual loop forms slightly after RSP. The reason I think their is something post RSP is that the old bamboo and glass rods become difficult to throw negative cast (underpowered curves). They are powerful rods for roll casts, etc... and this is what got me thinking about posing the question.

 

Last year, in Atlanta, we videoed multiple casts with a high speed camera to try to challenge the concept of loop formation beginning at RSP.   We really could not see evidence of the loop starting to form either before RSP or immediately following (during counterflex.)  This was done, however, at 100 fps.  The results might be different if done at 1000 fps or greater.     G.

 

Compare the RSP to wrist extension used for the line hauling hand. If we begin our haul with Flexion in the line hand and conserve this rotation until late in the stroke-it is like saying when the wrist becomes straight (in line with forearm-similar to RSP of the rod) then the line hand no longer accelerates the line. As you know, it is the point after RSP (wrist being straight) to when the wrist uses extension that is the nitrous to the haul. Just like conserveration of rotation late in the stroke. Why would the 3rd class lever (rod) be any different? Imagine throwing a Frisbee without wrist extension? If the counter-flex did not yield anything at all to acceleration then why do more people not cast with broomsticks? Actually, I used many a short broomstick about 15 years ago for some casting demos, not a pleasant thing to cast for long periods.

 

I have the same opinion after doing the same thing with my "broomstickrod".     G.

 

You had mentioned that much negativity has come about with the technical jargon. I think that is ashame for any aspiring instructor to disregard classic Newtonian principals. That would really stagnate ones progression for becoming a more creative caster. I cannot think of a better sport than fly casting to apply these principals for some thought provoking insight. The self discovery of new casts including the "what if" approach to practice is enhanced no doubt with a basic understanding of mechanics. It is a vital part of the journey. It will in due time replace many of the myths and fallacies that plague the sport of fly casting today. The change is slowly coming. Some great stuff Gordy as usual the past week. 

 

 

Cheers,

 

Mac Brown

 

Attachment: Gordy3.doc
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Attachment: Rod flex-RSP.xls
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Attachment: Gordy1.doc
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Attachment: parallel_loops.pdf
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Attachment: out_of_parallel_loops.pdf
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