----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 3:18
PM
Subject: Tailing Loops
Walter & Group....
From Bob Hansell:-
Gordy,
Thanks for sharing Lefty's letter.
On the tailing loops discussion Lefty wrote "But what I think is
important
is most of them tend to occur when the rod hand and or elbow are
elevated
on the back cast and dropped on the forward cast."
Two thoughts occurred to me while reading this:
As you have stated in many message strings: This is a different way
to
explain the same thing as 6.) Less than 180 degrees between the
trajectory (line plane) of the back cast and that of the forward cast
mentioned below.
What surprised me the most is what I see most is the improper
application of power especially on the delivery cast (as opposed to
the
false cast) as people tent to throw the last cast. Now as a CCI
trying
to go for the MCCI, I have immense respect for Lefty and feel he and
most of the folks on this study group know much more than me. Perhaps
he
is working with more accomplished casters an I am working more with
beginners.
So my question is what is the most common casting error that causes
tailing
loops or is that even important? It may be more important to
correctly
evaluate the cause?????
Thanks,
Bob
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Bob ..... As you know, Lefty is the best known and most repected
fly caster in the World. His experience in teaching casters of all
ranks around the Globe is tremendous.
He uses a teaching technique which is the same as his extensive
writings: That of using simple language and terms which are effective
in getting the job done even if the descriptions don't necessarily stand up
to super scientific scrutiny. Some have criticised this as pure
"showmanship". As I spent many days and hours teaching with him,
however, I couldn't excape the obvious ....... HE WAS VERY
EFFECTIVE IN VASTLY IMPROVING HIS STUDENTS' CASTING.
One example is his statement : "The size of the loop is
determined by the distance that you speed-up-and-stop at the end of
the cast."
Many took issue with that. When I sat down with Lefty I found that
he fully realized that this was a gross simplification and that he was
basically correct in that the caster has more convexity of the path of the
rod tip at the end of the cast when the distance of the "speed-up-and-stop"
increased since most casters tended to drop the rod tip a greater distance
from the oncoming line when that occurred. Thus the size of the loop
was also dependant upon the path of the rod tip !
My answer to your last question:
1.) The most common cause of tailing loops is different in different
localities and with different kinds of tackle as well with different casting
/ fishing tasks. Let me explain.
When Tom White came to Florida from Washington State, he was of the firm
opinion that most tails were caused by creep. He changed his mind after
coaching many salt water anglers who were using heavy rods and lines as he
noted that their most common cause was pure inappropriate use of
power. We both noted that the more common cause of tailing loops was
different with casters who used a Lefty low elbow-on-the-shelf /
off-horizontal / change of rod planes between the back and forward strokes
style. Turned out Lefty was right as these casters
did fail to keep their elbows on the "shelf"
! (Elevated on the back cast and dropped on the forward cast.)
With these casters, we often noted a combined casting defect .... that
one plus the tendency to have a spike of power during the stroke. This
made the "cure" more complex.
2.) Yes. I do feel strongly that the best way to correct this fault is to
evaluate the cause (s) and eliminate it (them).
Gordy
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From Troy Miller:-
Morning Gordy --
I
think that your description of a caster's natural style belying his/her
physiology and strength is spot on. I've written your
sentiment (almost verbatim) numerous times on casting forums, maybe
never on this one -- i can't remember. As we experiment with different
styles, each of us will gravitate toward motions that maximize output, hurt
the least, and result in the prettiest (smoothest, sharpest, most parallel,
etc) loops from the caster's vantage point. If our strength changes
over time, so may our predominant style. When I was 25 pounds lighter,
I had very little strength in my shoulders -- I mean VERY little. I
couldn't cast more than 45 ot 50 feet with a vertical casting plane.
Some time in the gym and strength training intentionally aimed at
strengthing my shoulders with motions that imitate Steve Rajeff's casting
stroke definitely paid off. No, I'm nowhere NEAR Steve in terms of
power or technique now -- but I can carry 65 to 75 feet of flyline
with an overhead casting stroke today. I still cast "Lefty style" most
of the time even now, since it's still the most comfortable and graceful for
me. As an engineer, I feel that high efficiency = maximum output
from minimum input.
Regarding "band-aid fixes" for tails. I feel like it takes an
expert caster to actually apply these band-aids to his own casting, without
prompting, mid-cast. How many times have you been casting, and on one
stroke, something was a little different, and you just "knew" that a tail
would show -- but you altered something "on the fly" which avoided the tail,
and allowed you to hold it together and continue casting beautifully?
Changing conditions such as wind, fly drag, length of line out when
shooting, etc. will require subtle alterations from one stroke to the
next. Many times, it can be hard to anticipate but mid-stroke, you
just know that you have to do something. Call them band-aids, but then
again, band-aids do serve a practical purpose in real life, don't
they? I'll never apply band aids when stitches are required. If
it's a chronic condition, you're right -- fix the root cause. But I
don't agree with the notion that we should never teach our
students the band aids. I just try to teach them correct form first,
and then follow with a statement that even the most expert casters will have
to deal with situations where they need to "save" a cast -- and that's when
the band aid fixes are introduced. Right or wrong, that's how I
teach.
JMHO
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Troy.... I think there is a time and
place for "band-aid" fixes. Example: A guide may need to use
such a fix on the stream or on a skiff to quickly save the day or trip when
his client is otherwise likely to have a poor experience due to many
tails. That client may well not wish to take valuable fishing minutes
to learn the details. I also agree with immediate, "mid-stroke"
fixes for self teaching. G.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From Walter Simberski :-
Gordy,
A comment on the "Band aid" cures - 3 of
the 4 "band aid" cures you gave as examples may actually be
legitimate fixes for a specific tailing loop
problem. They may also "fix" a tailing loop
without actually fixing the root
cause. e.g. lengthening the casting stroke may
result in smoother power application, remove creep, or
even
cause the caster to dip the rod tip more at the
end of the stroke. It's the blind application of the cure without
understanding the root cause or how the change is affecting the stroke that makes
cure a band aid.
In some cases it can be very difficult to
identify subtle hand or body motions that are causing a problem.
One of the diagnostic aids I've found useful is
to ask a student to temporarily add and then remove
band aid changes
to their casting stroke and observe how these
changes affect the
loop/rod tip path/body motion. The intent in this case is not
to hit upon a cure without understanding
the actual cause. The changes can sometimes
help to spot or isolate a subtle issue or to provide
empirical evidence to help confirm or refute a
diagnosis.
I also use this method to make subtle changes
that I feel might improve a student's casting efficiency
without telling them why I want them to make a
change. After a few minutes I'll ask them to
do a bit of
self diagnosis, i.e. tell me if they feel any
difference and if they can describe it. I then explain why I had
them
make the changes. Sometimes a student will
unintentionally resist making changes to their stroke if they
think about it too much before trying a
change. This way the body can provide unbiased feedback about
the change before the brain has a chance to
interfere with the feedback.
Cheers
Walter
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Walter .... Well, if the "band-aid"
fix just happens to do the trick, that is all it is. If the same fix
is made for a correctly diagnosed fault, then I'd not look at it as a
"band-aid" at all. G.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What are some underlying situations behind some
of the causes of tailing loops ?
# Anxiety either due to a candidate being
tested or fear of not being able to reach a fish, etc.
# Angler excitement as a hundred pound tarpon
gets in range. (We call that a "KK" (Knee-Knocker)).
# A head wind as the caster tries to overpower
it.
# Attempting max. distance as the caster
uses a spike of power on the delivery cast.
# Deterioration of casting control due to
fatigue.
#
"
"
" " due to
fishing in numbing cold. (Happened to me in Alaska.)
# Poor application of power when the
caster switches to a very heavy outfit.
# Lack of attention to the unfurling back cast
loop as the caster creeps forward anticipating the next stroke.
# Teaching first time casters with a very soft
(limber) fly rod.
# Gross mis-match between the weight of the fly
line and the rod designation.
Probably many more.
Gordy