I think I've been successful in actually sending the amazing photo of that huge rainbow from Saskatchawan as a new attachment.

Do any of you know if an early morning, "Coffee meeting" has been set up for our group ?

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short answer; the heavier line will load the rod quicker with less line in the air.

long answer; the line taper will not allow a lot of line outside the rod tip without having skinny line trying to turn over fat line.

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Rene.... Not wrong in any way. Your answer, however, does not include the concept of modern fly rods being designed to handle and actually cast best with more than the grain weight of the first 30' of any line (from 6 wt.s up).

Embracing that concept makes the reason for using shooting heads of greater designation than that of the rod clear.

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This came in from Al Crise's study group. Take your time to chew on this, "casting faults and corrections" scenario, paying close attention to Troy Miller's comments (in blue type )

See comments below.

Regards -- TAM

-----Original Message-----
From: flysoup [mailto:flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 10:38 AM
To: Undisclosed-Recipient:;
Subject: wed mid week 7/18

The following is from Tony

Read it carefully and send some of your thoughts. Friday I will do some RED on this. But I want you to do some study on cause and effect. work the 6 steps

what the line did

what the rod did

what the body did

Cure

what the body should do

what the rod should do

what the line should look like.

These 6 steps can apply to some of the test questions and LIFE...

ol Al

So here are some problems What do you do to change them

Line makes a BIG loop on the back and forward cast?

Loop size is influenced by the length of the rod, the tip path, the stop, the haul, and the flex in the rod. A longer rod will make more open loops than a shorter one with a similar action. A softer rod will make more open loops (for a given energy input) than a stiffer one. Disagree. Soft rods lead to deeper loading, and commonly result in tailing loops rather than wide, open loops. A more convex tip path will give a more open loop while a straighter tip path will give a tighter loop.

This is the format that you would use.

Big loop.

Rod tip traveling in an large arc.

Not stopping the rod.

Need to stop the hand/wrist/rod to sent the loop OUT.

Stop the hand/rod sooner.

See the loop get smaller

Check for,

1. The rod being thrown forward and back in an excessive casting arc. Reduce the casting arc appropriately.

2. The rod being decelerated rather than stopped. Introduce a proper stop.

3. A convex tip path being made by pivoting from the wrist. Adjust by stiffening the wrist and using more elbow.

4. A convex tip path being made by pivoting from the elbow. Adjust the stroke so that the elbow moves laterally as well as vertically.

5. Excessive power application causing large counterflex. Reduce power appropriately.

6. Too early a haul if the cast is being hauled. Adjust haul timing

Many of these are style issues. The primary consideration is that the rod tip is moving in a substantial arc (and I mean the geometric definition of the word arc, meaning an outward curve) in the rod plane, rather than SLP. And it must be emphasized that this is not ALWAYS a bad thing. There are times we make this cast by choice.

Line makes a large horizontal loop on the backcast?

Check horizontal tracking and whether the caster is rotating the wrist. Adjust by having the caster track the rod tip at 180 deg to the forward cast during the back cast. Keeping the reel pointing at the forward cast target throughout the back cast stroke will ensure that the wrist is not rotated.

Typically rotation at the waist causes large horizontal loops. Yes, this causes a massive tracking error. Wrist rotation can, but does not often result in LARGE horizontal loops. Usually they're much smaller hooks.

Troy is right on target. Waist casting, Long hand movement in an arc. and wrist flip from a side arm caster

Work on getting the loop going straight backward 180 degrees from the target with the rod tip on this line.

See the loop swing around behind the caster

The rod was moving in a circle

The caster twisted around during the stroke did not have a speed up to a stop.

The body should not twist until the loop is sent backward.

The loop is sent 180 from the target by stopping the rod going Back

See the loop go straight back.

Line tails on the forward cast?

A tailing loop occurs when the fly leg buckles down and crosses the rod leg of the loop. This loop deformation results from the rod tip having described a concave path during the casting stroke. A concave tip path can be caused by,

Too narrow a casting arc for the power applied
Uneven power application
Lack of a forward loading move
Finishing the stroke too soon
Finishing the haul too soon
Line plane less than 180 degrees
Slack line
Unexpected preload

Check for creeping which narrows the casting arc. Affirm the need for a positive stop. Consider introducing drifting.

Check for smooth power application

The casting stroke may need to be adjusted as necessary to include a translational forward loading move with good stroke and haul timing (to minimise slack and to allow the back cast to fall into plane). If casting heavy flies, open loops or Belgian style casts maintain an element of constant tension thus avoiding unexpected preload from any kick as the back cast turns over.

Generally good answer. It's not really that the fly leg "buckles down", but actually gains its forward momentum in a straight line that is beneath the tip position at the stop. Therefore, when the loop forms, the moving part (fly leg) is beneath the static part (rod leg). The loop often starts its life upside-down.

See the fly leg drop the fly below the rod leg of the loop?

The rod tip is dipping in a conclave path. 3 reasons 1) Creeping, shortening the loading move or casting stroke, 2) Early power without acceleration until the stop. Causes the rod tip to dip and return, 3) Moving the hand in a "U" path from high back low to high front.

Tailing loop

The rod was drifted forward while the loop was moving backward

The caster was moving his had forward too soon.

The rod has to be keep back until the loop is fully opened or just about.

See the loop keep its leg parallel

4 Line piles up on the ground in front of the caster?

This could be caused by,

Too little power, causing the cast to collapse. Adjust power
Deceleration rather than a stop on the forward cast. Stop properly
The casting arc being tilted back and the line being cast almost vertically. Re-align the casting arc for proper casting plane.
The casting arc tilted too far forward and the line being cast into the ground/water. Re-align the casting arc for proper casting plane.

Good answer.

I agree.

See the line hit the ground

The rod tip did not stop or you did not have enough load in the rod.

Loss of transfer of power or not enough power.

Stop the rod higher after making your loading stroke and snap stop.

See the loop carry the line out.

5. Line strikes the ground on the back cast?

This could be caused by,

Too little power causing the cast to collapse. Adjust power.
Pausing too long before commencing the forward stroke. Adjust timing.
Deceleration rather than a stop on the back cast. Introduce a proper stop.
Stopping too late on the back cast thereby throwing the line on the ground. Stop the rod at an appropriate angle (e.g.thumb vertical) so as to throw the back cast upwards.
The casting arc being tilted too far back. Re-align the casting arc for proper casting plane.

Aren't 4 and 5 the same thing? Good answers.

Most often caused by starting the rod too high, Slack

See the line pile up behind you.

You are starting with the rod tip high

Try Starting with the rod tip at the water/ground .

Make an UP cast behind you

See the loop go UP behind you?

6. Line hooks to the left (RH caster)?

This could be caused by

Rotating the wrist clockwise during the forward casting stroke. Keep reel pointed in the direction of the forward cast target.
Tracking the rod tip in a horizontal curve with its outermost point towards the the caster's right. Track straight back from the forward cast target
Throwing a tailing loop in the horizontal plane. Remedy the cause of the tailing loop (See above) if undesired.
Overpowering a side cast with a positive stop. Use appropriate power if the hook is undesired

A lot of these answers are a mixture of what the rod did and how the caster may have caused it. If using the 6-Step, I think first we start with what the rod did to cause the loop shape we see. The answers here give correct info, but don't necessarily follow the 6-Step approach.

Fly landed left of target but line was straight (almost)

The rod tip moved in an arc at the stop

The hand rotated outward on the back cast.

Keep your hand with the thumb behind the cork.

Do not let the rod rotate out If you see your thumb nail YOU did

See the line and loop open straight.

7. Back cast has 2 loops points or a square front section? ___] kind of like that.

This could be caused by the caster lowering the rod tip and then creeping, immediately after the back cast stop. Make a proper stop. Consider drifting.

This is kind of hard to describe but think of a missed timed Haul. This will cause the second loop,

Apply the same format line, rod, hand hand rod line.

Loop has two apex shapes.

The line is being sent out with both the rod unloading and a haul

The line hand is hauling too soon.

The haul is too soon.

Make the haul after the rod is loaded

See the single tight loop go straight back.

8. Leader and 6 ft of line pile at the end of the cast?

This could be caused by,

An underpowered high trajectory cast (pile cast). Add power (if undesired).
An overpowered bounce-back cast(tuck cast). Reduce power (if undesired).
A tailing loop entangling the rod leg. Remedy the tailing loop (see above).

The above, or :

Potential leader design problem. If the rest of the flyline unrolls properly, I'd first look to see that the leader is appropriate for the size of fly. If the taper occurs too early (or the entire leader is constructed from tippet size material), then the leader will not be able to continue transferring the flyline's energy smoothly. Leader collapse is the result.

May be using a line weight that's too light for the requirements (like trying to cast a big deer hair popper on a 4 weight rod). Your only choice may be to up the line weight of the system to something more appropriate.

The answer to some students' problem may lie in the equipment, not the technique. There are some things that aren't possible even for the most expert caster. As an instructor, you need to be able to identify that for them. It's even better if you can tell them WHY it doesn't work.

dog pile of line at the end of the cast. (looks like Sh^^*^)

(Most often this is from a short Pause. Remember The front cast mirrors the back cast.)

Starting forward with the leader and 6 ft of line still going backward.

Hold the back cast a little longer Might try pointing the rod at the loop.

Keep waiting just a tad longer.

See the loop is traveling to the end of the line.

9. Line has dropping rod leg belly on the forward cast?

This could be caused by an underpowered forward cast and might be accentuated if there is not a proper follow-through. Adjust power and make a good follow-through.

Depends on whether line is being shot or not. Do we have wind in our face?

All above might be true. Another cause it the Counterflex of the rod. Letting the tip travel below the line path.

Watch this one closely. Is the rod tip dipping after the cast, Overloading of the rod can do this too. Heavy lines will dip in the center, because the tip did first, Gravity Wins.

10. Line strikes water 15 ft from caster fly lands 35 ft out?

This could be caused by the caster dropping the rod tip to the water after the loop has begun to unroll. Adjust for an appropriate follow-through (if undesired).

(dropping the rod tip even during the stroke can result in this).

See the line hit the water right in front of you.

You brought the rod too far down.

Your hand is not stopping.

Try stopping your rod tip up high keeping the SLP

See the loop carry the line and fly out.

NOTE that in each cast I tried to pick the 'one' that would most often happen or the one that would do the most to improve the cast. Shotgunning or giving so many corrections at one time will destroy the students, enjoyment.

Keep it simple and try for just a few words or corrections Sure there are more than one cause of a problem YOU as the instructor are challenged each time you see a problem. Not one will fix all but some will fix most. GET RID of the SLACK. Add the power at the right time. Make the stroke long enough, Make the ARC the right size, Keep the SLP towards the target.

If you do not know go make some cast until you make it happen. Casting wrong is just as important for an instructor as casting right. You know what causes the problems. Exactly right, Al. There are times that a "bad cast" is EXACTLY what is needed to fit the application. Expert casters understand the cause/effect of every rod movement and line loop.

How can you fix something you do not understand? Know the reason, perform the fault Fix the problem.

You can learn form Extremes to little too much too slow too fast..... Find the JUST RIGHT.

ol Al

I will be here until sometime Friday.

I will try to get on line at the RV Park and play catch-up. might miss some addresses.

Thanks for the prayers.

on the road again......

Allen R. Crise
FFF-Master Casting Instructor
FFF-SOC VP Education
Adaptive Fly Fishers
http://wlsff.com/affcommunityserver/forums/3/ShowForum.aspx
PHW www.projecthealingwaters.org/Index.htm
FWFF Chairman Education

Hawk Ridge Fly Fishing School
2508 A County Rd, 1011
Glen Rose, TX 76043
254-897-2045 h
254-396-1574 c
www.geocities.com/rrdoctor
flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx

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? meeting? / Picture of rainbow / Casting faults

This could be caused by