Hauls ... summing it up

Walter & Group........

From Michael Jones:

Gordy:

With the greatest respect, I did/do not agree with the beginning of

this statement:

THIS TRANSLATES TO STARTING THE HAUL CLOSE TO THE START OF THE CASTING

STROKE AND ENDING IT AT OR JUST AFTER THE ROD STRAIGHT POSITION (RSP).

-G.Hill

I THINK WE CAN SAY THAT THERE IS NO PERFECT, "WRITTEN IN STONE ON THE

MOUNT" PLACE WHERE ALL HAULS MUST START. -G.Hill (I disagree)

I do agree with this:

If the haul starts at the same time rod rotation starts it is easy to match

accelerations to maintain SLP and gain tip speed. There is no disruption of

the bend caused by a tug on the line in the middle of the stroke. This

works and is the way many casters haul, and is the way I haul, at least on

my forward cast. -B.Richards

This Topic IS important to the MCCI candidate not to confuse, and I

believe that there is a good short answer to the original question

that gives a valid starting point to work from with students. That

being said, style, tackle, and distance will take care of themselves

in regards to adjusting the haul start time, but:

A major point that I am surprised did not come out of all of the

answers provided had to do with 'cleaning up (aerial) slack' by

starting the haul early to achieve tension. It is my belief that too

many intermediate casters start the haul too early to make up for poor

timing, poor loop formation, or improper line speed. The best

exercise Mac Lord showed me to point this out is to allow someone to

haul, then ask them to stop hauling, then start again, then stop, etc.

until the student understands that the timing and casting stroke

(with proper rotation) dictate line speed, and the haul serves to

embellish that, rather than create a crutch for cleaning up slack

caused by poor mechanics and timing.

Lefty Kreh: "He looks like a monkey trying to ?&*^ a basketball"

Michael Jones

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Michael ...   I don't think we are really that far apart.  Note that both Bruce and I were careful to avoid making definitive statements. That's why I used the words, "close to"  and Bruce avoided saying that the haul must start with the beginning of rotation. 

One of the problems that our glossary committee is working on is just when the casting stroke itself begins.  That is best left for future discussions.         Gordy

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From Ally Gowens:

Hi Gordy,

 

The Check Haul is interesting because depending on its application and timing it can also be used to convert a straight line cast to a slack line cast. (A sharp pull on an aerialised straight line will cause it to recoil to and slacken). There are two commonly practiced methods of achieving the same result as the check haul, one is to raise the rod to cause tension in the line and force turnover (This method is also use to convince the inexperienced that you have just cast a whole fly line when actually you were several feet short of it) and the other is to retard the outgoing line with your hand for the same purpose. Thus it is best to teach shooting line through your line hand rather by letting go and loosing control of it. Anyone who fishes in darkness will already have learned this!

 

It’s interesting that many answers re haul timing refer to “after the rod is loaded”. At the instant the haul commences the rod will be loaded by the haul if nothing else (provided of course that the first rule of fly casting is observed “organise the line before you start a cast”! So I wonder when is a rod loaded, how much load is loaded? This question presumably has no precise answer unless of course the group know better!

 

I teach double hauling on short grass in the horizontal plane using “down/up” by separating the back and front casts and initially letting the line extend to a stationary state on the grass. Once the student has mastered the down up in both directions the pause between the two casts is reduced until the repertoire is aerialised and then it’s moved to higher planes. It was Joan Wulff who convinced me that this was the best method and it has brought me a high success rate. Teaching the double haul for roll and Spey casts is a lot trickier!

 

E = MC² relates to nuclear physics where C is the speed of light.

 

What I think you mean from is from normal physics where kinetic energy E = ½(Mv²) where v = velocity.

Best wishes,

Ally Gowans

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Ally:    Yes, indeed.   I can take an unloaded rod in horizontal plane with the tip near the grass and the line straight off the tip.  No load at all. With no rod motion, I demo a haul with nothing more than a line hand pull.  The rod momentarily loads and the fly jumps over . ( Works well with only about 20' of line straight out of the rod .) 

Thanks for correcting me on that equation !     Takes us out of the cosmos and back to the real world.      Gordy

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From Paul Arden :

Hi Gordy,

I disagree with many of the comments here, in casting literature the haul has been very much misunderstood, and in particular that its purpose is to increase rod loading.

 

"Without rod load, there can be no effective haul!"

 

It's very easy to haul without a rod and this is how we hand cast.

 

"Let’s look at why we haul in the first place…we haul to load the rod. It is the loading of the rod that will create the energy, when used within the casting stroke at the ideal time that gives us the line speed we need."

 

The basic premise here is incorrect; we haul to directly increase line speed. It's important to remember that no matter when the haul begins it must end at or after RSP. If it finishes too early the tip will rise and the loop tail. It follows that if hauling adds load (which it must) then since this load occurs also or solely as the rod is unloading that hauling will (or should) slow tip speed and not increase it. Maximum haul speed should occur at maximum tip speed which is RSP and not max rod loading.

 

Cheers from Hungary,

Paul

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Paul: 

 

I didn't jump on that statement for 2 reasons.  First, his use of the word, "effective".  Second, because the very result of the haul is to increase line speed and to provide rod load.

 

 I thoroughly agree, however, that the most important duty of the haul is to directly increase line speed.  Its secondary function is that of increasing rod load which indirectly adds to line speed.  The other functions I see as tertiary.

As we go from longer to shorter rods, we must increase the speed of the haul in order to keep line speed the same. With a 2' long rod, it becomes almost all, "haul".  Even more so as we hand cast with no rod at all !     Gordy

 

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From Steve Rajeff :-

Good morning Gordon,

Timing of the haul is like asking, "How blue is the ocean"?

 

All the responses below can be correct. The are variables that can make the responses more better than others. Variables could include:

 

How much added power/speed is needed to accomplish the cast?

How much slack is there in the back cast?

How heavy/air resistant is the fly, and what density line/diameter is the line?

How stiff is the rod/line balance, and what is the rod taper and length?

How long of a stroke the caster is comfortable with?

Many others...

 

IF the goal was to see how far could you cast;

 provided the back cast were perfectly straight and tight;

and if the fly and line were small diameter and there was a slight tail wind;

with a stiff rod to line balance and fast taper rod;

and the caster has the flexibility to reach back a bit to extend the stroke,

 

Then I'd say the haul could start just as soon as there is tension to the rod tip against the extended back cast,

with the major emphasis of the haul imparted when the "loaded rod lever arm" is perpendicular to the straight line path to the trajectory of the cast.

 

The ACA has been working with IGFA to hold a casting tournament in early February 3-4, 2008,

which is Sunday- Monday in Ft. Lauderdale. Accuracy event will be at Tiger Tail Lake, and distance

at an athletic sports field in the area. There should be an announcement in the next few weeks to

spell out the details. We plan to have our usual divisions, Juniors through Seniors.

I may ask you for suggestions to find a couple helpers to assist in running the tournament.

Best regards,

Steve Rajeff

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COMMENT:  I think Steve's message pretty well sums it up.  It speaks to my own conclusions that the start of the haul is dependent upon many things ..... in no way an absolute starting point with respect to the movement of the fly rod and that of the casting arm/hand.  While I may not be correct about that theory, it remains for the physicists to prove it wrong.

With this series of discussions and opinions coupled with the input of physics graphs by Bruce Richards and Noel Perkins, I think that we may well have come up with the most up to date and comprehensive review of hauls ever accomplished.

I'd like to think we can keep our minds open to plausable theory.  Personal bias and different opinions will remain and provide the very flavor for what makes fly casting an art.  The scientists will continue to provide physics information which will help explain what we do and, hopefully, will help us improve our casting and especially our teaching.  I hope the mystique of fly casting is never completely replaced by mathematical equations and that a certain amount of pure theory remains.

Gordy

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