Loop turnover / factors

Big thanks to you and Rick for the thoughtful answer. I am still scratching my head and drinking coffee on this one just a bit though.

One thing - in the second paragraph I was not clear and perhaps did not ask my question in the proper context. I was thinking of the scenario where, before the last forward cast, the ENTIRE rear taper is out of the rod tip with "x" amount of running/shooting line outside of the rod tip also ( assuming the caster can control it). When we make the last forward cast the loop is formed and shoots off away from the rod tip. While the loop pulls the available running line out, the line begins to turnover. Since the rear taper was out of the rod tip prior to this last forward cast, the rear taper is involved in this shoot and turnover. This turnover, or conversion from fly leg to rod leg, goes through the rear taper from thin to thick - so that is what I referred to as increasing mass, thus delaying turnover and increasing time allowed for forward momentum. Isn't this what actually happens when we are carrying line past the rear taper?

So I was questioning why would changing the above "x" factor make a significant difference in turnover rate. Why will having 4 ft. of overhang (of pure running line) significantly delay turnover when compared to 2 ft. of overhang. In a lot of the integrated shooting head lines there is a color change at the juncture of the head and shooting line. So it is easy to see the difference between an overhang of 2 and 4 ft., and it sure seems to make a lot of difference in the time of the shoot because of the delayed turnover. Just never understood why completely.

You have already answered the question - I know there is not a simple answer - I just wanted to clarify my question a little better.

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Re-forming and answering the question yourself is a great self teaching exercise. You have just done that.

I don't think there is a great deal of difference between casting with rear taper and/or running line out of the rod tip except for the fact that the rear taper is thicker and likely of greater mass than the same length of skinny running line. This translates to greater friction between the thicker part of the rear taper and the fly rod guides/tip top which diminishes as the thinner portion of this taper leaves the rod.

Once the rear taper is out of the rod tip, however, I don't see that it any longer has any practical function. This is because this portion of the fly line is thick line of greater mass followed by thin line of lesser mass. Even though it is already out of the rod tip, it can mainly delay loop turnover because of its length but not on account of its mass profile. Putting it another way, once that rear taper is out of the rod tip and on its way, it functions pretty much the same as thin running line.

That rear taper, while travelling out of the rod tip represents thick line followed by thin line ..... not the other way around. That thinner line behind the thicker part of the rear taper cannot assist in its turnover significantly. A long rear taper, however, can help control the cast by allowing a smoother transfer of energy than is the case with a very short or no rear taper going right to thin running line. The trade-off is that with a long rear taper, the greater diameter can result in more friction and greater mass to be carried by the head in the direction of the target, so distance suffers a bit.

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Howdy Gang, Jim, Steve and Gordy

Jim asks:

If the rod tip moving fastest at some point prior to RSP, and begins to slow down just before RSP, then I wonder if that portion of the haul after RSP is wasted? Or is there a benefit to continuing the haul into Rebound?

The rod tip does not start slowing until it passes RSP. This travel after RSP is the slowdown to stop, then Rebound to RSP passing this a little, more on soft or older rods, This is the bouncing of the rod tip.

When I am talking of is, the travel of the tip from loaded or bent the grip is rotated to it's fullest, the tip is trying to catch up to the butt. This is the 'Recovery period' up to Rod Straight Position (RSP) This is when the tip of the rod is applying the most SPEED to the line. Pulling the line along. Now is when the haul is adding the speed to the line most effetely.

Hauling past RSP..'MIGHT' dampen the bounce of the rod, stopping some of the tip travel past RSP. I just can not see that in my hauling. So I will say stopping at RSP is the best time to stop the haul. The Releasing of the line can delay after RSP to give some stabilizing of the rod's rebounding.

Watching Mel's tape again I was convinced that the speed of the haul matches The Rod's Tip, in timing, speed, and stopping at RSP. Same with Bill Gammel's CD when he is hauling. Yes they are moving the hauling hand before the rod hand stops but the Speed of the hauling hand increases greatly during the "Recovery" period and stops at RSP or releases the line.

Steve's question on overhang does bring up some questions.

How can you cast a full WF line if you do not have some of the running line out of the guides. Looking at a WF with 36 ft of head, and we can carry 40 feet of line in the air. That is about 4 ft of over hang. Then using the 50% of shoot or adding the 20 ft of shoot to the 40 feet of line gives us 80 feet of distance. How can you get to 100 ft. Carry more in the air? Now we would have to carry 65 feet of line in the air or 30 feet of over hang to make the 100 foot cast. Some thing is wrong with this thinking.

Am I the loose cannon ball again? We can lay the line full out on the ground behind us and make one forward cast and get all the line straight in front of us. No hinging. WHY? I feel that this loop formation is required to make a FLY line cast. Other wise we are just flinging the weight. As with a spinning rod. Do Shooting heads fall into this type of casting? The Fly Cast is a special physical action of a rotation and is still under study. Transfer of the rod's energy to the line requires the mass of the fly line to be rolling or rotating. To do this we get the line moving in the direction then add the rotation of the loop to this mass. This way Rayjeff's longer head works as a way to keep the line moving and the loop is not rolling until the mass of the head is being pulled under the loop. At this time the loop takes over adding the distance past the line that was just flung in that direction.

Ok Troy jump in and give us the Physical rules that this is effecting. I am off to have my third cup of coffee.

ol Al

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1.) I doubt an advantage in carrying the haul into rebound.

2.) You have clarified your definition of, "recovery". Good.

3.) Matching the haul to the rod tip probably is a good idea.

4.) I don't know if carrying the haul through counterflex, past RSP actually damps the rod.

5.) Noel and Bruce have shown that the rod tip is moving fastest between the STOP and RSP.

6.) In your example, above, I can't make 100'. I can if I carry more line ..... say 60'. That 50%, "rule" is a gross approximation.

7.) Steve Rajeff has demonstrated that longer heads take longer to unroll irrespective of the length of overhang. This helps increase distance.

You have invited Troy's response. So do I.

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