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    Walter & Group.........

    I placed Noel Perkins' article on loop formation as an attachment.  Makes sense if you don't get bogged down in the calculus.  (Paul Arden also included the link in his message.)

    Gordy

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    From Paul Arden on making the pointed loop : (I had wondered exactly when to make that thrust)

    Hi Gordy,
     
    SLP during line acceleration, ie to RSP. I think it's [almost] as simple as that.
     
    I'm also sending a pic just after line release that was taken a month or so ago. What's interesting about this pic is that the loop starts off round, however it morphs into an sharp wedge shape loop. I learned something this particular weekend, which I should have worked out years ago, in that the amount of overhang should be matched to the tip deflection away from the trajectory of the line. For example this line is an Mastery ED, when that loop is all overhang, completely leaving the head in the air, the loops morph dramatically sharper. With this stroke that happens with an 86ft carry (flyline to line hand). Up until then I had always figured work out your maximum carry and then pull back a little bit - which is a quite literally a backwards way of doing it.
     
    Cheers,
    Paul
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    More from Paul :-
     
    Hi Gordy, on the question of loop shapes :
     
            As we know everything up to RSP during the line acceleration forms the top/flyleg of the loop and everything after RSP to counterflex forms the bottom/rodleg. In a normal overhead cast the loop begins round and then morphs. The sharpness of the point as I understand it is the difference in tension between the two legs. The line profile and the acceleration of the top leg obviously has an effect on loop morph. There's quite a nice sequence here: http://www.sexyloops.com/picofday/sexyloops/sexyloops2.shtml 
    I agree that by lifting the rod during counterflex you can create a narrower loop. You can also do the same after loop formation at the sacrifice of distance.
     http://www.sexyloops.com/picofday/sexyloops/sexyloops8.shtml 
     
    (To my question : " Then there is the question of whether there really is an aerial, "lift" when we do achieve that pointed loop ")
     
    Yes there is a lift, but it is not the aeroplane wing lift type, but instead a force at the bottom of the loop causing the lift. This explains why a horizontally cast line will remain in the air longer than line freefalling. There's a [rather] complicated PDF file by Noel here, http://www.sexyloops.com/flycasting/loop%20dynamics.pdf . Al would enjoy reading this.
     
    I'm still working on the hauling past RSP. I'll have an answer in about three years.
     
    Cheers, Paul
     
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    A question to rest our brains from Lewis Hinks :
     
    Hi Gordy,
     
        Interesting discussion of late. I have a much more basic question for the group.
     
        What causes the rod to load? Is it the weight of the line (first 30 ft) or is it the resistance to movement of the line, or is it a combination of both? How much does each factor, line weight and rod movement, have in the making of a cast.
     
    Lewis
     
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    Lewis...
     
    A very good question.
     
    I look at it this way.  The weight (mass) of the line is only part of the equation.  What really loads the rod is the resistance to the rod's increasing movement (acceleration) to the tendency of the line behind it to remain where it is.  That is called inertia.
     
    The greater the mass of the line behind the rod tip, the greater the inertia.
     
    As the rod moves forward with linear acceleration of its tip it bends against the resistance to the inertia of the line and as it does so, it stores latent energy which increases  as the rod bends further.  This energy is released as kinetic energy as the rod straightens.  This release of energy from the bent rod is added to that directly imparted by the caster to propel the fly line loop once formed.
     
    Rod movement alone, without acceleration won't result in true loading, for practical purposes.  The greater the acceleration against the inertia, the greater the rod bend and, therefore the greater the load and the more latent energy can be stored in the bent rod.
     
    Of course, it isn't quite that simple, since there are many forces acting upon that line including gravity and atmospheric resistance.
     
     
    (Simplistic definition of inertia:  Bodies in motion tend to remain in motion.  Bodies at rest tend to remain at rest.)  This explains why it requires more energy to start to move a stationary object than it does to maintain that movement.
     
    Gordy
     
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    From Jim Laing.   My brief comments in bold red italics in his text :-
     
    Gordy-
     
    I asked about hauling after RSP the other day, mainly because I believe haul timing has an impact on loop shape - I'm hoping guys like Bruce, Jason and Grunde come up with some definite answers on the detail of these complex subjects. 
     
    Bruce Richards and Noel Perkins are working with their new haul analyzer device. 
     
    I would like to be able to change the loop shape on command at 40, 60 and 86 feet...  my goal is to do this for my next MCCI attempt (only then will I know I'm ready).  So let me take a GUESS on how to articulate two common loop shapes...
     
    That will be a tall order !!
     
    1.  The semi circle - the purest of loops, but the least dynamic.  Formed when the haul finishes a fraction of a second before RSP, and an immediate dampening of the hand as the loop forms, forcing a circular tip path through counterflex. 
     
    Probably so, but as yet unproven..... at least as to exactly the point of loop formation.

     

    2.  The sexyloop (copyrighted! hope Paul doesn't mind ) - more dynamic/ complex.  The lower leg forms a distinctive angle below and behind the upper, leading edge of the loop.  The loop is defined by a ships hull angle and very geometric, suggesting the haul is pulled through RSP into the lower edge of the loop.   This keeps the tip in a straight path to the maximum point of counterflex.   I suspect there are ways to manipulate the radii size at each of those points also.

    In line with Paul's description, I think the haul may increase the disparate, "tension" or resistance between the rod leg and the fly leg .... therefore increasing the change in loop shape.

     

    3.  Tackle has nothing to do with any of this - it only impacts size of loop :---)   Up to a point.

     

    4.   I 'm pretty sure those are bad answers, but hopefully the best of the worst!  The engineers are probably ready to break my wrist for taking an ill informed guess.    We'll leave that up to them.  I have no club.

     

    BTW - I find nothing in the reading materials that addresses this!  Not finding anything on haul termination or rod leg tensioning either ...

    That's why we're here ... trying to go way beyond the existing fly casting literature.

     

    Cheers,

     

    Jim Laing

     
     

     

    Attachment: loop%20dynamics.pdf
    Description: Adobe PDF document