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Walter/Gordy
I tried annotating Walter's message below. It's nice to see the effort going into subjecting the foundations of casting to a more rigorous scientific standard -- keep it up Walter and Gordy. Just a little volley shot to Gordy - I noticed that you joined the chorus on FFFCCI about teaching "hard stops". The level of scientific//logical rigor there is again dropping. If you (or any one else) want to convince me there is any value to teaching "hard stop" you have to address//put a rational argument together for what the benefit is (and it will also be necessary at some point to refine the definition of hard stop because now it has evolved into a moving target). I can tell you right now that the field of Physics will offer nothing to back up a benefit stemming from purposefully stopping the rod. Personally I have wiped the slate clean, do not use "hard stop" to describe anything (except as a crude signature for a specific cast I call the baseline cast (term is not original with me - Jason as far as I know would be a logical place to put credit)), explain the real mechanics of casting as I practice it, and have students demonstrate (with my assistance) for themselves how it works.
By the way, Walter, I like the term "kickback" - I'm tempted to call it the "Harral kickback" in the future out of nostalgia.
From: WALTER/SUE SIMBIRSKI [simbirsw@xxxxxxx] Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 10:16 AM To: Ssadik1@xxxxxxx Cc: Gordon Hill Subject: Re: What do you feel or sense at the end of the casting stroke? Server - Now that I've been educated/convinced that this is a real affect and have had a chance to think about it I just wanted to run a couple of thoughts by you. The amount of kickback is dependent on rod stiffness and the opposite of what we would call smoothness, i.e., the stiffer the rod the less the kickback, and the smoother the casting motion the less the kickback. #Yes, generally true. When lecturing/demonstrating I try to teach phases of casts. The first phase is a hand relocation and preload phase. This phase should be smooth -- i.e., this means rod loading gradually increases and actually never becomes large, ONLY BECOMING LARGE DURING THE ACTUAL CAST. Also about the kick-back, the harder you push the rod or the more you rotate the wrist in this phase the higher the kickback. Of course if you are trying to achieve kickback, then use energy but this is not part of a baseline cast. Also incidentally for a baseline cast the wrist must stay "poised" - that is no wrist rotation in phase 1 and the wrist stays locked and loaded for the "cast".# Loading a rod effectively makes it stiffer, i.e. the more you bend it the more force is required to bend it farther, so a loaded rod will kick back less. #It is more difficult to send the tip backward on a preloaded rod and of course most times when the rod is preloaded it is already moving (sometimes referred to as an initial velocity - remember the simple ordinary differential equations you studied and the role of initial conditions) which can preclude any possibility of sending the tip backward.# In a smooth, "baseline" cast the caster goes through a loading move with a smooth translation to the power snap so the kickback doesn't occur or isn't an issue. #YES.# If the rod isn't loaded at the start of the power snap then kickback can occur. There would be two manifestations on the line when this happens -- the first, and most common, is a concave path of the rod tip resulting in a tailing loop. This would happen whenever the casting stroke is too short such as when creep has entered the system and the caster has the option of a power snap without a loading move or running out of arm before achieving full acceleration. YES, THAT'S TRUE. HOWEVER WHAT I SEE WITH EXPERIENCED CASTERS IS PHENOMENA WHERE THE ROD IS LOADED INADVERTENTLY BY THIS "KICKBACK" THEN RAPIDLY followed by natural rod unloading THEN AN ATTEMPT IS MADE TO MAKE A NORMAL CAST AND THE RESULTS DEPEND ON THE DETAILS OF HOW SKILLED THE CASTER IS. THE TYPICAL M.O. IS FOR THE CASTER TO HAVE 20 OR MORE YEARS OF EXPERIENCE AND ESSENTIALLY BE DOOMED TO CAST THIS WAY FOREVER. IN THE PAST I JUST LUMPED THIS INTO THE CATEGORY OF "OVERPOWERING" BUT UNDERSTANDING IT IN TERMS OF "KICKBACK" AND SLACK GENERATION AND SLAPPING IS MUCH BETTER AND LEADS DIRECTLY TO SOLUTIONS. RECENTLY I WATCHED ANOTHER INSTRUCTOR FRIEND THAT I ENCOURAGED TO HELP A VERY EXPERIENCED CASTER WITH HIS PROBLEM COMPLETELY MISDIAGNOSE AND MISLEAD THE STUDENT. NOT WANTING TO OFFEND MY FRIEND I STAYED QUIET BUT HOPEFULLY I'LL RUN INTO THE STUDENT SOMEWHERE DOWN THE ROAD AND FIX HIS PROBLEM ONCE AND FOR ALL. The second would be when the caster does make a full casting stroke but the loading move fails to load the rod fully due to slack in the line. This results in shock waves in the rod #(I THINK YOU MEAN TOP LEG)# leg of the line because the rod tip path is more complicated than just a simple concave path. In this case the rod tip kicks back and would then accelerates faster than expected because the full momentum in the line is not there to hold it back. When the line was jerked tight the rod would actually rebound in mid casting stroke and then rebound again at the end of the stroke. Exactly the same tip movement as when a wiggle cast is performed but applied during the cast rather than as a mend. We would see this happen whenever the caster pauses too long at the end of the casting stroke allowing the line to sag, i.e. generate slack. This casting fault is described in "Troubleshooting the Cast" by Jaworowski but he doesn't have the complete description of the rod action in this case (i.e. the kickback isn't part of the analysis). Because of this most people expect to see a tailing loop in this case rather than shock waves. THIS MAKES SENSE ALSO - UNFORTUNATELY YOU USE A REFERENCE THAT I AM CRITICAL OF BECAUSE I HAVE FOUND LITTLE IN IT THAT IS CORRECT AND USE IT MERELY TO HAVE PICTURES OF CASTS. IF THE CASTER IMPLEMENTS A PHASE 1 FOR THE CAST THEN SLACK WILL NORMALLY BE REMOVED BECAUSE THERE IS PROBABLY 4 FEET OF TIP MOVEMENT ASSOCIATED IN MOVING THE HAND FROM ONE CASTING POSITION TO THE NEXT - YOU DON'T EVEN NEED MUCH LOOP INTEGRITY TO ACHIEVE THIS FOR A NOMINAL LENGTH OF LINE. IF YOU GENERATE KICKBACK THE SLACK IS AT THE WORST PLACE - NEXT TO THE TIP OF THE ROD. Different from THE STANDARD NOTION OF SLACK WITH WEAK LOOPS, ETC., WHERE IT IS DISTRIBUTED OVER THE LINE OR CONCENTRATED TOWARD THE TIP. Does this make sense? - YOU MADE GREAT SENSE AND I HOPE THE EMBELLISHMENTS GO TOWARD EXPANDING ON THE DETAILS - For myself now that I can see this pretty clearly I will be looking for it on a more regular basis. Several people that I either fish with or know fairly well or prototypes for kickbacks, particularly for their delivery cast where the adrenaline is high. - Server Thanks Walter ----- Original Message ----- From: Ssadik1@xxxxxxx Date: Wednesday, April 5, 2006 8:16 pm Subject: Re: What do you feel or sense at the end of the casting stroke? > Do it with an unstrung rod and if that's all you're seeing snap a > little harder with your wrist. Same type of motion you would use when > making your a real cast except you have to start from rest (no > creeping forward). A couple of feet isn't to much too ask for with > this move -- just be sure you are achieving some significant rod > deflections in the process of the wrist snap. |