Walter....
VERY good question. Relax over a cup of coffee before you read this.
Take note of the fact that champion distance casters all underline the rod for top performance.
I've noted Steve Rajeff, for example, to use a 17 wt. rod with an 11 wt line to make a record distance cast.
When you cast your 5 wt. rod with a matching 5 wt. line, you are really handling a true 5 wt line as you false cast with 30' of line out of the rod tip.
Add 5' - 6' of line, and you are already casting a 6 wt. line, BECAUSE EACH LINE IS RATED ACCORDING TO THE GRAIN WEIGHT OF THE FIRST 30 FEET.
Now you want to go for distance....so you carry 60' of line before your presentation cast. Since each 5' to 6' off line carried adds one more weight designation, theoretically, you are now using a 5 wt. rod to cast a 10 wt to 11 wt. line !!!
I said, "theoretically", because while this is what is currently being taught in most fly casting courses, it isn't strictly the case. Reason is that once you let enough line out of the rod tip to get into the thinner and lighter running line behind the head, the increase in weight with each 5' - 6' is less, so the accretion is not geometric. This will, of course, vary with the length of the head. It's more true of a long belly line, like the XXD (50' + head) than it is with a TT line with a 30' head.
With that XXD line which many of use for practice and teaching, with the scenario described above, you are probably casting a 9 - 10 wt. line with your 5 wt. rod loaded with a matching 5 wt. line and carrying 60'.
When you have trouble carrying a lot of line as you underline your rod, you are telling me that you are actually having difficulty handline that extra overhang with this new and (to you) unaccustomed arrangement.
You are absolutely correct about the need to carry more overhang. Let's talk about that.
In teaching intermediate caster courses, many of us teach to carry as little overhang as possible to start, then add a bit more as casting expertise advances. That's to prevent frustrating bucking or, "hinging" which is really due to the caster not being able to handle much overhang for the reason that he/she can't maintain a straight line path of the rod tip and enough loop speed to do that. Tracking isn't good enough.
As we get to teach advanced students, we work on having the student carry more and more line....advancing in small increments. Each increment representing a bit more overhang. We do this until we reach the maximum amount (wt.) of line which the student can carry and still maintain good tracking, a good SLP of the rod tip, and a well controlled distance cast.
This is what Bill Gammel is doing in his video, "Teaching Yourself To Fly cast."
Now we go to competition distance casters. These folks can carry tremendous lengths (wts.) of line and still maintain good tracking with surprisingly good SLP's. Why do they do this ?
The answer lies in the observation that the more line they can carry (perforce the more overhang) the longer it takes for the presentation loop to unroll. Now, since the loop is only going forward while it is unrolling, the longer you can keep it unrolling, THE LONGER THE CAST.
All that is behind Steve Rajeff's statement, quoted by Jason Borger, "Overhang is the tool for determining the rate of turnover of the head". (Jason Borger, NATURE OF FLY CASTING, p. 240.)
Gordy
From: WALTER/SUE SIMBIRSKI <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>
To: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Overlining/Underlining
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 10:51:53 -0700
Gordy - We have read that to increase casting distance one should underline, rather than overline, their rod. Have you had any chance to experiment with this? I just
tried my 6 weight XP with a 5 weight line and found that, while you need to get more
line in the air to load the rod properly, you also get more overhang (talking wf line)
making loop control more difficult. I also found that I could cast roughly the same
distance with both lines but that I wasn't able to shoot as much line with the
5 weight - even when I had good loop control.
I've seen some people who can control an incredible amount of line in the air
(Jeff's videos are a great example). Would someone with that ability (i.e. well
in advance of my own) find the overhang a non issue?
Do you know of anyone who regularly underlines their rods?
Thanks
Walter
From: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
To: flysoup@xxxxxxxxxx, sobbobfish@xxxxxxx, rtab@xxxxxxx, CAPTPERMIT@xxxxxxx, creangler@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx, dwright@xxxxxxxxxxxx, daver@xxxxxxxxxx, dennisg@xxxxxxxxxxxx, captdoug@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, dsprague01@xxxxxxxxxxx, ephemera@xxxxxxx, brushycreekfc@xxxxxxxxx, keysjake@xxxxxxx, barefootj@xxxxxxx, bradyir@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, flyfishar@xxxxxxxxxxx, ken.cole@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, captkirk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, glbaggett@xxxxxxxxx, mkreider1@xxxxxxx, martyt@xxxxxxxxxx, niallogan@xxxxxxxxxx, pminnick@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, bigfly@xxxxxxxxx, whorwood@xxxxxxxxx, flycasts@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, sheila@xxxxxxxxxx, scjacobs@xxxxxxxxxxxx, tharper@xxxxxxxxxxx, tomwhite@xxxxxxxxxxxx
CC: mildbill@xxxxxxxxxxxx, caddis@xxxxxxx, Brydnlnims@xxxxxxxxxxx, cezannealexander@xxxxxxxxxxx, crazycharlie@xxxxxxx, croberts@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, blacksalmon@xxxxxxxxxxx, DermSox@xxxxxxx, gladesflybum@xxxxxxxxx, gavin@xxxxxxxxxxx, hillshead@xxxxxxx, iverson@xxxxxxxxx, jfs523@xxxxxxxxxxx, jerry_puckett2001@xxxxxxxxx, kathleen@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, thedamselfly@xxxxxxxxxxx, plami@xxxxxxxxxxx, ray@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, kerrrc@xxxxxxxxx, simbirsw@xxxxxxx, bobbeanblossomFFF@xxxxxxxxxxx, hillcathy@xxxxxxx, dnewpher@xxxxxxxxxxxx, donjack@xxxxxxxxxxx, douglas.swift@xxxxxxxxxxxx, erniemaynard@xxxxxxxxxxx, flyfsfrank@xxxxxxx, hlpc@xxxxxxx, jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, harveyjl@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, t.maltese@xxxxxxxxx, skifishvail@xxxxxxxx, jfv@xxxxxxxxxxxx, trallag@xxxxxxx, captflyrod@xxxxxxx, mollysemenik@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, fraudflies@xxxxxxx, shane@xxxxxxxxx, snowmonkey29@xxxxxxx
Subject: Additions to list
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2005 09:46:15 -0500
Group:
Re the list of things to bring to the exam, I have 2 additions.
1.) Unless you can tie a good nailess nail knot, it's a good idea to bring a knot tying tool, hollow tube, or nail in case you have to place a whole new leader on the fly line.
2.) Go back to # 8, a. What I meant was that the Sage TCR 7 wt. rod is 10' long, not 9'. The 6 wt. is 9' in length.
Gordy