Peter....
You and Bruce have made some important notes, here. A great deal to be learned.
Gordy
From: Peter Minnick <pminnick@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: [Fwd: Re: (no subject)lines]
Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2006 09:38:33 -0500
Gordy.. A lot of good information here.. Also sending you the article I sent to Bruce... Peter
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Subject: Re: (no subject)lines Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 14:20:38 -0500 From: bwrichards@xxxxxxx To: Peter Minnick <pminnick@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> Peter, 60 ft. is well within the effective range of either line. 30 ft. of head, plus leader, plus length of rod means a shoot of no more than 10 ft. if the line is carried with the end of the rear taper right at the rod tip, and most people carry more. Loop size is not affected by head length, only the tip path affects loop size and the caster is responsible for tip path. When a line lands on the water is determined by the mass of each section. You can't make a generalization about how a line will land based on head length. Usually the part we are most concerned with is the front 10 ft. of line, or so. It is very possible to make a line with a long head that has a heavy front end that lands hard and delivers big flies very well. Conversely, making a line with a 30 ft. head that delivers delicately is very possible also, though rarely done. How any line turns over and delivers is dictated by the length of the front taper and the diameter (mass) of the line tip. At one extreme would be lines with short tapers and large, heavy tips, which will turn over hard and land hard. Long tapers with light tips result in delicate deliveries, regardless of the length of the belly/rear taper. Assuming a good caster who can throw a straight line, length of overhand will have little effect on loop size. Again, that is controlled by tip path. If the line is straight in the air when the stroke starts, the rod and caster won't know whether there is overhang or not, all either will know is that there is weight to load the rod and that is needed to keep the tip path straight. A less skilled caster won't get the line very straight so when the stroke starts the rod will pull on slack and not bend leading to tip path problems. Top casters can easily carry 40+ ft. of overhang with a WF line with 40 ft. head and throw very nice loops. It is a bit easier with a longer head because it is easier to keep the line straight, but the difference is minor. For best distance in the wind the ideal line will have a head that is exactly the length that the caster can carry with tight fast loops. The amount of line that can be shot stays the same assuming equal line mass, so whoever can carry the most line will cast furthest. For example, take a day with 20 mph wind and good caster. Say he can carry 35 ft. of line with fast tight loops into the wind. Carrying more requires more rod power than he can control so loops start to get sloppy. If the line has a head longer than 35 ft. the caster either has to carry more than his "clean" max, or carry 35 ft. and have large diameter line in the rod. Either will reduce distance.A line with a head of 30 ft. will require carrying some overhang, and, when cast very hard, lines with short heads tend to "kick" more resulting in some slack and reduced efficiency. Just carrying the 30 ft. will reduce total distance by at least 5 ft. Of course, to make these statements we have to consider all other variables, like line weight, to be equal. Obviously conditions change so fine tuning head length for wind is a tough thing to do. That said, for fishing I'd rather have a line with medium length head that works well when the air is calm, and isn't a huge burden when it is windy. As with most things, products made to extreme specifications excel at one thing, products made with more average specifications are good at a lot of things, but don't excel at any. I've got Pennick's Little Red Book and find it very interesting. I'll watch for the article you're sending, sure it will be enlightening. I wish I'd known about him long ago, would have shortened the process I took to get to my current teaching philosopy! I've been asked to do a 2nd edition of the line book, but to be honest, it wouldn't change much. I wrote it based on the physics of how lines work, and that hasn't changed. I could add more about lines and casting, but I think that is a better subject for a casting book, which I am working on. Thanks for the encouragement! Regards, Bruce Scientific Anglers/3M 4100 James Savage Rd. Midland, MI 48642 USA Tel: 989-496-1113 Fax: 989-496-3374 Peter Minnick <pminnick@optonli ne.net> To bwrichards@xxxxxxx 01/10/2006 11:27 cc AM Subject Re: (no subject)lines Thanks Bruce...I would say the average cast is at least 60 ft. If you're fishing the mangrove holes and get any closer you'll push the fish out and if you're in the open they'll see the boat before getting off a shot. I'm going to try kayak fishing on my next trip as I understand you can get closer to the fish without spooking them.At this distance or more can you tell me if the size of the loop is affected by the length of the head?I know a 40 ft. head will make a quieter spashdown than a 30 ft. and the 30ft. will turn over a big fly better but which is better for distance specially in the wind? Or put another way is the size of the loop affected by the length of the overhang? I'm a golfer and a student of golf as well.The similarities between golf and flycasting are unbelievable.All the same moves on a different plane.I'm sending you an article which brings to mind your 6 step method. Harvey Pennick's Take Dead Aim is on the FFF's recommended reading list and is another resource for keeping casting mechanics simple. Are you coming out with another updated version on Modern Fly Lines? Something like Fly Lines made Simple would be a welcome addition to our present resourses ...Peter bwrichards@xxxxxxx wrote: >Hi Peter, >Thanks for the kind comments. For the fishing you describe I agree and >would recommend a line with a relatively short head, assuming that the >average cast is short-medium (30-60 ft.). I suspect they are, hitting >pockets longer than that is pretty tough and there is usually no need. >We have two lines that fill the bill nicely. Our Ultra Bonefish or SWT have >33 ft. heads and a fairly powerful front taper, and our new Mastery Redfish >lines have 30 ft. heads and a similarly powerful front taper. Both lines >are made heavier than standard due to their short heads, the Ultra line one >full size, the Mastery a half size (assuming better casters). The Redfish >line floats better, important to wading anglers. >Let me know if I can help further Peter.... >Regards, >Bruce > >Scientific Anglers/3M >4100 James Savage Rd. >Midland, MI 48642 USA >Tel: 989-496-1113 >Fax: 989-496-3374 > > > > Peter Minnick > <pminnick@optonli > ne.net> To > bwrichards@xxxxxxx > 01/09/2006 10:47 cc > AM > Subject > (no subject)lines > > > > > > > > > > > Bruce .. I've always appreciated your comments..thankyou..Chico wrote >an excellent article on lines in the current issue of SWFF.Lines are >really the heart of the system and I tell my students to get the SA >products catalogue to be understand them. I often fish in the Everglades >casting into the mangroove openings. What in your estimation is the best >type of line and taper for this kind of fishing. The air temp averages >80 the water 74 and I fish a 7wt Loomis GLX. I'm casting mostly surface >deerhair or subsurface seaducers, bendbacks and snakeflies as well as >deceivers and small clousers. I'm alternating between open very skinny >water and the holes in the mangrooves as Chico describes. Would it not >be best to design your own taper leaning towards a bug with a 30ft. head >or is there a commercially available choice... Thanks Peter > > > > >