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  • FW: Re: STYLE








     


    From: Jeff Wagner <jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
    To: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
    Subject: Re: STYLE
    Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 15:30:04 -0700
    If I may I would like to suggest that assisting a student in finding
    their style
    early on by understanding styles of other casters and using these as general
    models for a student will allow the student to perform their best more
    quickly.
    While also introducing the student to styles which may be adopted in various
    situations to accomodate changing circumstances.
    
    It is possible to inform the students of this when teaching a class and
    helping
    each student individually find their style throughout the class.  I believe
    that Gordy may have noted my doing this in the distance class he observed at
    last years conclave.
    
    
    While teaching a basic style creates a great platform for the student to learn
    from and has been done for many years.  This could also slow a students
    learning if not accompanied by a description of other styles or resources to
    learn other styles.  Much discussion of casters I have spoken with has been
    
    around "reconstructing" their cast. To me this means rebuilding their casting
    style to better accomodate a goal (accuracy, distance, salt water fishing,
    small stream fishing) or body movement.
    
    Just some thoughts on style!
    
    --
    Jeff Wagner
    
    Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly Fishers
    Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
    Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
    Redington Pro Staff
    970-481-5887
    jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    www.dhflyfishing.com
    
    
    Quoting Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>:
    
    
    
    
    
    Jeff.... I've come to recognize two different methods of teaching with regard to style: 1. Have the students all conform to the instructor's style, realizing that after the lessons, many will change as they develop a style of their own. (Joan Wulff and others) 2. Start early allowing the students to develop style even during the first sessions. (Bill Gammel) As we all know, advanced casters will embrace different styles to suit varying fishing conditions. They do, however, have a style preferred for most of their casting and fishing. I like to call that the caster's DEFAULT STYLE. Gordy
    
    -------------------------
    From: /Jeff Wagner <jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>/
    To: /Walter Simbirski <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>/
    CC: /Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>/
    Subject: /Re: STYLE/
    Date: /Sun, 15 Jan 2006 13:16:49 -0700/
    Walter,
    
    Interesting comments!
    
    
    In conversations with other instructors the style I use is EXACTLY the style they teach. If you look at my style it is not as you describe being different,
    it is just exagerated. It is very similar to what Joan Wulff and many
    
    instructors teach, just longer, more pause, etc. Actually there is very little rotation that happens early in the stroke, the diagram sent along with it proves
    that.
    
    
    It seems as though we are on very similar planes when talking about teaching a style. Style is very individual so it is good to hear you may encourage your
    students to try other styles.
    
    Actually in a conversation with Peter Lami this morning, who casts almost
    
    exactly as I do and teaches the same style, we will be teaming to together to
    co-teach the class I mentioned on style.
    
    Thanks for your time, this is an interestin conversation.
    
    --
    Jeff Wagner
    
    Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly Fishers
    Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
    Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
    Redington Pro Staff
    970-481-5887
    jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    www.dhflyfishing.com
    
    Quoting Walter Simbirski <simbirsw@xxxxxxx>:
    
    
    Hi Jeff! This is going to be a bit long winded - bear with me.
    
    
    I hope I wasn't saying your style is wrong (or gave that impression) - far from it. Your style is obviously working as measured by the results. I was trying (probably poorly) to make the same point you were making - your style on the back cast (early rotation followed by extended thrust) would be discouraged by most casting instructors but it works
    very well for you.
    
    
    Your haul is continuous during the cast but because you rotate early and very quickly the haul during this part of the cast is short. It can't be any other way because the time period is very brief. You then finish your back cast with an extended thrust, some additional rotation, and the remainder of the haul. I'm sure there are biomechanical reasons for your particular style. The other thing about this is that you are "casting on the edge". You're no longer looking for ways to get 10% or 5% improvement into your casting. I'm sure that if you found a way to add 1% at this point you would be very happy. This is a basic fact in any sport where time, distance, or height is measured. There is a basic limit to what the human body can do. When someone is getting "close to the edge" of that limit then we really see individual styles, based on biomechanical differences, come in to play. Athletes with long arms and flexible joints take advantage of an exaggerated stroke. Athletes with short arms take advantage of leverage and explosive movement. Regardless of individual differences there willl always be certain things that have to remain true - muscle power has to be applied in a certain order suited to the athlete. You don't use the weaker muscles at the same time as the stronger muscles because the weaker muscles limit the stronger muscles. An example is a weight lifter cleaning a weight (lifting a barbell from the floor to their shoulders). They don't try to do this with the arms and legs simultaneously because the arms would limit the lifting power of the legs. The sequence of events is to start lifting with the legs bent, feet flat on the floor, back straight and almost upright, arms hanging straight down. Begin lifting with the legs because those are the strongest muscles. Next the back is used, followed by calf muscles, and finally the arms. There is no point starting with the arms because they simply couldn't get the weight moving - they are only capable of slowing down the affect of gravity and helping the lifter slip under the weight. Many beginners, however, start the lift with the arms or may even use the back in place of the legs (a sure way to get injured). You can start with your arms or back for lighter weights but as the weight increases this becomes impossible.
    
    
    A coach or trainer needs to help the athlete develop a style that makes the most efficient use of the athlete's natural abilities. In the example of the weight lifter no coach in the world is going to tell the athlete to start the lift with their arms but there are subtle differences regarding when and how long certain muscle groups are applied in a lifting movement that can be brought into play. Before a coach can help the athlete develop these attributes though it is necessary for the athlete to learn some basic truths. In weight lifting you want the start of the clean to be straight up - trying to lift at an angle decreases the effectiveness of the muscles. In fly casting the rod tip needs to move in a straight line and the loops have to be tight or
    you are not getting an efficient cast.
    
    
    In your case the average fly caster would look at your stroke and, based on what the average fly caster is told about casting in the one or two lessons they may have had, would say that you are doing everything wrong. Because your cast is so fast, for example, they would assume your rod tip is not travelling in a straight line (how could it be with an almost 180 degree casting arc?) or they would say you are stopping in the wrong place and using way too much wrist because all of the stuff happens way to fast to see with the naked eye. I had to slow down your video considerably before I realized much of your rotation on the back cast is done
    early in the cast and that what may look like drift is actually thrust.
    
    
    Now the real crux of the matter. If I, as an instructor, had a beginning caster that demonstrated similar style (ignore the haul because a beginning caster wouldn't be hauling - just concentrate on the idea of an early rotation followed by a long
    thrust) would I discourage him from casting this way?
    
    
    This is a bit of a trick question - I specifically included the word "discourage" because of its negative connotation. Personally, I would never discourage a student from trying anything but I would certainly get them to try a more "standard" casting style to begin with - i.e. open the wrist only a small amount and at the end of the back cast, not at the start. Students should be encouraged to experiment and find what works for them but I believe that
    they should first learn the basic casting stroke.
    
    Sorry for the long windedness.
    
    Cheers
    
    Walter