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FW: Re: STOP?
- Subject: FW: Re: STOP?
- Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 18:18:49 -0500
From: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Jeff Wagner" <jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
CC: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: STOP?
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 03:45:22 -0000
"For someone that
doesnt get good rod bend a 180 degree arc gives terrible wide loops."
Well Jeff, it would have to be a pretty impressive rod bend to get a SLP through
180 degree casting arc.
I think translational rod movement helps in distance, but it's certainly not
an essential.
Gotta run, Board problems.
Cheers,
Paul
----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Wagner" <jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2006 3:32
AM
Subject: Re: STOP?
>Obviously we are interpreting these things differently, I dont
>agree.
>
>Matching the casting arc to rod bend is having a straight line path
>to the rod
>tip which gives a good loop. I think in a distance cast you
>definitely have
>matched the casting arc to rod bend if you didnt we would have some
>other loop
>shape. I dont think that SLP is "something that just happens", I
>think it is
>to complex to give that kind of a generalized statement. For
>someone that
>doesnt get good rod bend a 180 degree arc gives terrible wide loops.
>
>I agree that they are a filter, and a good one. But, I dont see
>anything in a
>distance stroke that does not follow them. As I outlined below. I
>see the 5
>essentials as Mr. Jaworski wrote about
them and that is also how I
>teach them. That the product of the cast is the proof of them. That
>most casting faults lie
>within them. If I have a perfectly executed distance cast with
>good loop shape
>all of the essentials are followed as I pointed out below.
>
>1. Straight line path of the rod tip = tight loop
>2. progressive speed up to a stop = tight loop
>3. long stroke easier cast = tight loop and the stroke can be
>longer than
>necessary
>4. tension in the casting system = tight loop
>
>I may be simplifying things a bit, but those are things that are
>actually
>happening.
>
>When I watch a great distance caster like Hartman this weekend at
>the Sacramento
>ISE show.
>He had
>1. Tension in the system
>2. tight loops, as you pointed out
from a SLP
>3. A very progressive speed up to a stop punctuated by a very rapid
>rotation
>giving great angular velocity resulting in excellent acceleration
>4. A long stroke that matched the distance being cast if it were to
>short it
>would have tailed, if it is to long, there is no adverse effect,
>only more
>energy used than necessary.
>
>--
>Jeff Wagner
>
>Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly Fishers
>Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
>Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
>Redington Pro Staff
>970-481-5887
>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>www.dhflyfishing.com
>
>
>Quoting Paul Arden <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>
>>OK, Jeff, if you knock out the SLP as being an action and
>>result of the other 4, and instead
consider it something that
>>just happens in a 170/180 stroke (and it must be flat at some point
>>since the loop is top pointed) then you've also eliminated matching
>>the casting arc to rod bend.
>>
>>All you're left with is power application, elimination of slack
>>and proper timing.
>>
>>Don't misunderstand me, Bill's 5 Essentials are the product of a
>>brilliant mind (which is quite surprising since Bill's
>>from Texas), and there is nothing quite like them, especially
>>combined with Bruce's six steps, but they're not "essentials"
>>in the true sense, they're simply a "filter" you can apply over any
>>straight line cast and the more "essentials" you create the
>>easier it becomes to break the filter.
>>
>>I find it interesting that if
you have 5 essentials the most
>>important is the SLP and the others are components necessary for
>>this to occur. If you have one essential
>>it is proper power application. FWIW I don't think stroke length is
>>an essential. The correct essential that makes sense in this case
>>is casting arc.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Paul
>>
>>
>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Wagner"
>><jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>Cc: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
>>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 11:13 PM
>>Subject: Re: STOP?
>>
>>
>>>Alright you baited me in.
>>>
>>>What other two essentials are not met by this.
>>>
>>>In a distance
cast we have (in no particular order):
>>>
>>>1. Fly line follows the path of the rod tip. Which as stated in
>>>a distance
>>>cast the fly line follows the path of the rod tip. Which it does
>>>in a distance
>>>cast, I lift in my final back cast and come forward hard rotating
>>>at the end to
>>>give me a straight line path of the tip and some counter flex
>>>which can pull
>>>the bottom leg of the loop down to give a wedge.
>>>
>>>2. Long stroke easier cast. No problem there, need a long
>>>stroke!
>>>
>>>3. Progrssive speed up to a stop (I combine those for my
>>>teaching), again both
>>>true I have to have a progressive speed up or acceleration to a
>>>stop
(dont
>>>start on the stop again!lol)
>>>
>>>4. Tension in the system. For sure, any slack would be
>>>disastrous for
>>>distance, and even a slight amount minimizes the best distance
>>>cast (dont start
>>>on slack, in my definition it is the most efficient path for the
>>>fly line to
>>>take, usually a perfectly straight line).
>>>
>>>--
>>>Jeff Wagner
>>>
>>>Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly Fishers
>>>Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>Redington Pro Staff
>>>970-481-5887
>>>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>www.dhflyfishing.com
>>>
>>>
>>>Quoting Paul
Arden <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>>>
>>>>Hiya Jeff,
>>>>
>>>>No I was reading this bit:
>>>>
>>>>"And I can make a crisp stop without any rotation at all, I can
>>>>make
>>>>>>wtih simply
>>>>>>linear movement"
>>>>
>>>>That's a tail.
>>>>
>>>>Hard to imagine SLP on a 170 arc but I agree it's in there
>>>>somewhere. So much for matching casting arc to rod bend.
>>>>It must just happen, which is handy. Sort of means you don't
>>>>have to worry about it and can just flop over as far and as fast
>>>>as possible. There goes another two essentials by the
way...
>>>>
>>>>Cheers,
>>>>Paul
>>>>
>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Wagner"
>>>><jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 5:07 AM
>>>>Subject: Re: STOP?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>You misread the e-mail Paul. I stated that if you continued to
>>>>>rotate through
>>>>>you would have a wide loop, which means you are creating a domed
>>>>>path to the
>>>>>rod, not a dipped down path.
>>>>>
>>>>>I agree about the 170 degree arc, but the reason is you have a
>>>>>straight line
>>>>>path to
the rod tip, or roughly so. I have an almost 170 degree
>>>>>arc as do
>>>>>several other casters I have watched video. I think you will
>>>>>notice a great
>>>>>deal of them have an initial slight lift after the drift which
>>>>>brings the tip
>>>>>to a level that as the forward motiona and rotation occur allow
>>>>>for a stright
>>>>>line path. Then a slight elevated forward trajectory to
>>>>>accomodate for line
>>>>>drop as the line unrolls. Of course all rod paths are not
>>>>>exactly straight at
>>>>>the end of the stroke (as shown my Al Kyte), they are slightly
>>>>>domed at
the
>>>>>end.
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>Jeff Wagner
>>>>>
>>>>>Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly
>>>>>Fishers
>>>>>Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>Redington Pro Staff
>>>>>970-481-5887
>>>>>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>www.dhflyfishing.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Quoting Paul Arden <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>>>>>
>>>>>>I don't understand Jeff, if you don't rotate the loop tails.
>>>>>>But yes, you certainly can do this. You're right, it wouldn't
>>>>>>be very
competitive.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Wrong link - I do that sometimes:
>>>>>>http://www.sexyloops.com/movies/shuffle.shtml You don't get a
>>>>>>wide loop with a Hartman 170 or 180 arc, which is of course
>>>>>>quite interesting and means there's a shortfall in our
>>>>>>understanding which we hope to fix soon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Cheers,
>>>>>>Paul
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Wagner"
>>>>>><jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>Cc: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
>>>>>>Sent: Monday,
January 23, 2006 3:33 PM
>>>>>>Subject: Re: STOP?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The link didnt take me to any video.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>And I can make a crisp stop without any rotation at all, I can
>>>>>>>make wtih simply
>>>>>>>linear movement. Obviously that isnt the best case scenario
>>>>>>>for distance.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Rotation certainly adds A LOT OF SPEED. And a crisp stop
>>>>>>>helps. I dont think
>>>>>>>that is debatable. I can have great rotation without ever
>>>>>>>exatually stopping
>>>>>>>the rod but continuing through with the rotation
in which case
>>>>>>>I would end up
>>>>>>>with a wide loop. I think there is more to it, as I have
>>>>>>>outline. But not
>>>>>>>sure we are getting any further.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>Jeff Wagner
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly
>>>>>>>Fishers
>>>>>>>Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>>>Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>>>Redington Pro
Staff
>>>>>>>970-481-5887
>>>>>>>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>www.dhflyfishing.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Quoting Paul Arden <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Hi Jeff,
>>>>>>>>Sure I stop the rod, but by the time I've stopped the energy
>>>>>>>>has been transferred. Dunno which video you're looking at but
>>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>>most recent is
>>>>>>>>http://www.sexyloops.com/movies/shufflecast/shuffle.mpg
>>>>>>>>Interesting contrast to
>>>>>>>>http://www.sexyloops.com/movies/distancecast/distancecast2.mpg
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"The problem with your description is that is
>>>>>>>>>not always true. In a very short cast the angle could be a
>>>>>>>>>90."
>>>>>>>>In which case it's not a stopless cast.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I'm not arguing that a crisp stop isn't a good thing; I think
>>>>>>>>it often is but
>>>>>>>>not because of "efficient energy transfer", but rather
>>>>>>>>because the crisp
>>>>>>>>stop is preceded by sharp butt rotation and that's the key.
>>>>>>>>The
stop is
>>>>>>>>a stop, for many years I fell into the trap of mixing butt
>>>>>>>>stop with butt rotation.
>>>>>>>>I think that's what you are doing now.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Cheers,
>>>>>>>>Paul
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Wagner"
>>>>>>>><jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>Cc: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 4:55 AM
>>>>>>>>Subject: Re:
STOP?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Paul,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I think we are on the same track no matter how much of what
>>>>>>>>>I say you agree,
>>>>>>>>>because about half of what you are saying doesnt make any
>>>>>>>>>sense to me.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Power application is just that, the application of power.
>>>>>>>>>Energy transfer is
>>>>>>>>>just that the transfer of energy. I can hold a rod in mind
>>>>>>>>>hand that is loaded
>>>>>>>>>full of energy because I applied a
force to the rod to make
>>>>>>>>>it move and then
>>>>>>>>>applied a force (energy) to make it stop. It is at this
>>>>>>>>>point where the rod
>>>>>>>>>butt has stopped that the rod tip can unflex and the energy
>>>>>>>>>can transfer into
>>>>>>>>>the rod. The application part has stopped (in a physical
>>>>>>>>>sense of me applying
>>>>>>>>>force tot he rod) and now the energy stored in the bent rod
>>>>>>>>>is being release..
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>The way I see it in my minds eye the angle is acute with the
>>>>>>>>>butt of the
rod
>>>>>>>>>and the fly line. The tip of the rod could be pointed
>>>>>>>>>forward, the butt toward
>>>>>>>>>the caster and the fly line would be attached to the tip and
>>>>>>>>>pointing in the
>>>>>>>>>same direction as the butt toward the caster. In this
>>>>>>>>>description Yes the more
>>>>>>>>>straight the rod becomes the more energy has been
>>>>>>>>>transfered. I agree with
>>>>>>>>>that. I said that in several previous e-mails by stating
>>>>>>>>>that as the rod
>>>>>>>>>unflexes the energy is released. The problem with your
>>>>>>>>>description is that is
>>>>>>>>>not always true. In a very short cast the angle could be a
>>>>>>>>>90.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Of course rod rotation and rod unbending give more energy
>>>>>>>>>and speed to the cast,
>>>>>>>>>that is not debatable. An angular rotation at any velocity
>>>>>>>>>is a continuous
>>>>>>>>>acceleration which gives a great load to the rod but also
>>>>>>>>>increases line speed
>>>>>>>>>dircetly.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Of the video of you distace casting that I have seen on
the
>>>>>>>>>website and last
>>>>>>>>>year at the conclave. I thought I saw a stop. It may not
>>>>>>>>>be the classic stop
>>>>>>>>>that youa re thinking of but there is definitley a quick
>>>>>>>>>deceleration.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>>>Jeff Wagner
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly
>>>>>>>>>Fishers
>>>>>>>>>Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>>>>>Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>>>>>Redington Pro
Staff
>>>>>>>>>970-481-5887
>>>>>>>>>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>www.dhflyfishing.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>>>Jeff Wagner
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly
>>>>>>>>>Fishers
>>>>>>>>>Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>>>>>Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>>>>>Redington Pro
Staff
>>>>>>>>>970-481-5887
>>>>>>>>>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>www.dhflyfishing.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Quoting Paul Arden <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Hi Jeff,
>>>>>>>>>>I disagree with about half of what you've written below.
>>>>>>>>>>Power application is the transfer of energy from hand to
>>>>>>>>>>rod butt.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>The only thing I can add to anything I've written earlier
>>>>>>>>>>is
this:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>As the angle the butt makes to the line becomes acute,
>>>>>>>>>>ie approaches zero, the load on the tip diminishes,
>>>>>>>>>>the rod straightens and transfers energy to the line.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I believe this results in a higher tip speed and not lower
>>>>>>>>>>since tip speed has now become a combination of
>>>>>>>>>>rod rotation and rod unbending and not rod unbending alone.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>For what it's worth I use a stopless cast for distance.for
>>>>>>>>>>seven weights and below. I
don't have the strength to
>>>>>>>>>>do it with heavier lines.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>Paul
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Wagner"
>>>>>>>>>><jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>Cc: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 5:47 PM
>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re:
STOP?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>I think we are saying the exact same thing. Power
>>>>>>>>>>>application is energy
>>>>>>>>>>>transfer. If the power application is over a longer
>>>>>>>>>>>period of time then it is
>>>>>>>>>>>a longer energy dissipation. Power application and energy
>>>>>>>>>>>go hand in hand. The pooint of a power application is to
>>>>>>>>>>>transfer energy from our body to the
>>>>>>>>>>>rod and to the fly line. If we are talking specifically
>>>>>>>>>>>about rod unload
the
>>>>>>>>>>>energy is being transfered to the fly line from the rod.
>>>>>>>>>>>If we are talking
>>>>>>>>>>>about a classic power application meaning the speed up to
>>>>>>>>>>>a stop we are
>>>>>>>>>>>applying energy. But in a lazy stop the dissipation is
>>>>>>>>>>>occuring over a longer
>>>>>>>>>>>period of time. To this I mean that there is only so much
>>>>>>>>>>>energy that will be
>>>>>>>>>>>transfered to the fly line as the rod unflexes. If this
>>>>>>>>>>>happens quick a
great
>>>>>>>>>>>deal of energy will be transfered to the line in an
>>>>>>>>>>>effective instant when the
>>>>>>>>>>>line is begining to move beyond the rod. If I were to
>>>>>>>>>>>exagerate this movement
>>>>>>>>>>>by decelerating slowly the fly line could continue to move
>>>>>>>>>>>forward while I move
>>>>>>>>>>>the rod down or to the side slightly, with a short cast
>>>>>>>>>>>the line could
>>>>>>>>>>>completely unroll before I have stopped the rod fully. If
>>>>>>>>>>>the line
unrolls
>>>>>>>>>>>fully and then I fully stop by a continual deceleration no
>>>>>>>>>>>effective energy
>>>>>>>>>>>would be transfered. In which my timing sucks. If I
>>>>>>>>>>>would have stopped the
>>>>>>>>>>>rod more abruptly then the energy would have been used
>>>>>>>>>>>more effectively.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>I am not sure how you can say power application is the
>>>>>>>>>>>problem. In the classic
>>>>>>>>>>>sense of the word the power application is getting the rod
>>>>>>>>>>>to
bend. If we are
>>>>>>>>>>>taling about a deceleration (lazy stop) then the power
>>>>>>>>>>>application is already
>>>>>>>>>>>over. However, since power application is such a broad
>>>>>>>>>>>term it could be used
>>>>>>>>>>>to describe the power applied to create the stop. As
>>>>>>>>>>>could energy, we could
>>>>>>>>>>>say energy has to be applied to the rod to make it stop.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>I am not sure where we are going with
this?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>>>>>Jeff Wagner
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly
>>>>>>>>>>>Fishers
>>>>>>>>>>>Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>>>>>>>Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>>>>>>>Redington Pro
Staff
>>>>>>>>>>>970-481-5887
>>>>>>>>>>>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>www.dhflyfishing.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Quoting Paul Arden <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Hi Jeff,
>>>>>>>>>>>>I disagree that the "problem" with a lazy stop is energy
>>>>>>>>>>>>transfer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>It may be power application, it may be tip path, but it
>>>>>>>>>>>>is not
>>>>>>>>>>>>energy
transfer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>"A very rapid
>>>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration more effectively transfers the energy into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>the fly line, because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>it is a over a short period of time."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>The transfer of energy is not time dependent.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>Paul
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Wagner"
>>>>>>>>>>>><jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Cc: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:44 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: STOP?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Paul,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>The enregy that is transfered anytime very rarely stays
>>>>>>>>>>>>>in one from. While
a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>great deal of energy would be a movement a kinetic
>>>>>>>>>>>>>energy as most know it. It
>>>>>>>>>>>>>will still produce some heat and some sound (possibly)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>although they may be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>very minimal the transfer is not 100% motion. Friction
>>>>>>>>>>>>>between the fibers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>much like friction between uscle fibers, will create
>>>>>>>>>>>>>some heat. You asked what
>>>>>>>>>>>>>type of energy I guess I misread the
problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>What I was trying to convey is that wether a very long
>>>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration or a very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>short deceleration (stop as we think of it), energy is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>still transfered from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>the flexed rod to the fly line as the rod unflexes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>propelling the line forward.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>The difference between these decelerations is how much
>>>>>>>>>>>>>of the energy would be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>usable to efficiently
propelling the fly line forward.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>A very rapid
>>>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration more effectively transfers the energy into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>the fly line, because
>>>>>>>>>>>>>it is a over a short period of time. This concept is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>similar to the timig of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>the release of the haul. I will not describe as I think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>we could get off on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>another tangent as that is another greatly debated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>topic. But it is
more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>effective releasing at one time during the stroke. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>same could be said for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>the stop and the transfer of energy from the rod to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>fly line. A slow
>>>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration releases the energy over a longer period of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>time with less energy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>being trasnfered at any one instant, thus transfering
>>>>>>>>>>>>>less energy into the fly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>line at any one
instance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jeff Wagner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Fly Fishers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Redington Pro
Staff
>>>>>>>>>>>>>970-481-5887
>>>>>>>>>>>>>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>>>www.dhflyfishing.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Quoting Paul Arden <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hi Jeff,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>"The energy would be in the form of heat, movemenet,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>sound
(very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>little)."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Are you saying the rod gets hotter with a lazy stop?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Movement I can understand, the energy is dissipated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>from rod to line
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>or better stated, transferred.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>That's how I understand it
anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Paul
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Wagner"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>><jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Cc: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:48 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re:
STOP?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Paul,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Eergy dissipated on a lazy stop is simply dissipated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>over a longer period of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>time and less of the energy would be transfered and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>used in prepolling the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>line. The energy would be in the form of heat,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>movemenet, sound (very
little).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>But to me its not what it is transferred as but when,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>it is the timing. If I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>cast 40 feet of line and make two consecutive casts 1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>with a solid stop and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>other with a longer stop a wider loop would form and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>less line speed would be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>achieved. I think this can be shown definitely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>through casting, but also
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>through the
casting analyzer which measures those
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>variables. Of course it is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>possible to cast 40 feet with with no actual stop and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a very long decelerationa
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>dn get good results because it is very easy to achieve
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that much power on such a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>short line, but that is not the point of the exercise.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>On your second poit that a decleration occurs before a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>stop. Of course that is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>true. I dont think that is a revelation! You have to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>decelerate to stop. A
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>car doesnt just cese to move some energy must be put
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>into making it slow down
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to a stop. The same is true of the casting arm and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>fly rod.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>When I mentioned maximum tip velocity below it was a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>maximum tip velocity before
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>any sort of deceleration had occured to make the rod
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>unflex. Which has to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>happen. There is no cast where a cast is made with no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>help from the fly rod by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>going from a flexed state to an unflexed state. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration may be very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>slow and add very little but it still
happens.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>In the swoop it may all be one fluid motion and it may
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>not have a solid stop. But, in order for a RSP to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>occur a deceleration of the hand must occur which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>allows the rod tip a nd fly line to begint overcome
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the lower section of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>rod and the hand. The hand may not be stopped, or the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>butt for that matter,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>but a
deceleration has occured.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>When you say butt, do you mean the very bottom of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>rod below the hand. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>know this sounds stupid. But if that is the case then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I would say that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>stop is almost imperceptable and we are seeing a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>follow through. Similar to a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>motion in a drift. I think this happens almost every
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>great casters cast.
However, a massive deceleration
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>has occured to allow the ro to get to RSP then
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a follow through.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jeff Wagner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Fly Fishers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor
Gear
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Redington Pro Staff
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>970-481-5887
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>www.dhflyfishing.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Quoting Paul Arden <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hi Jeff,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>There are a couple of things I don't agree with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>below:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>" quicker
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration means a greater amount of energy would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>be transferred more quickly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>into the flyline and less of it would be dissipated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>after its effectiveness in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the cast."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>How do you see
energy being dissipated on a "lazy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>stop"? And in what form?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>"But the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>stop IS the point of energy transfer from rod to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>line and does impart more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>energy into the cast than would be lost from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>counterflex or other ineffective
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>motions associated with the stop when done
properly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>When the rod is unbending it is transferring energy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>from rod to line, this begins
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>when the rod butt is being decelerated/angle of line
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to rod becomes acute.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>This *always* occurs prior to butt stop.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>"The deceleration would be after a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>maximum tip velocity and the inability of the
caster
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to maintain an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>acceleration, an action caused by the caster
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>intentionally slowing the rod
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(stopping) or unintentionally from running out of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>arm"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Maximum tip velocity occurs at Rod Straight Position
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>which normally
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>occurs after the stop, but in some cases can occur
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>during the stroke
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(making the stop a non-essential)..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The swoop stroke I am thinking of, pulls down with no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>butt rotation,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>rotates the butt around a fixed point and then drives
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>upward,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>pointing the rod in the direction of the cast.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>It's all one fluid motion. RSP occurs before butt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>stop.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I know the recognised theory, Jeff, but I don't think
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>it's complete.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Paul
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Wagner"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Cc: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 4:49 AM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: STOP?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Paul,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>A minor point. You can have a
stopless cast. But
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>every cast has a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration. even if that deceleration is over a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>long period of time or large
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>distance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>IF I understand your description properly there is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>still a deceleration in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>rod at the end of the stroke or in this case when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>170 degrees is attained. Any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration from a maximum tip velocity will cause
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the tip to straighten. And
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>consequently energy to transfer from the rod to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>fly line. Since it is the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>tip that is unbending and has the motion most of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>energy would be expelled
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>through the tip. The amount of energy that would go
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>into the cast would depend
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>on several variables including the time of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration, a quicker
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration means a greater amount of energy would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>be transfered more quickly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>into the flyline and less of it would be dissipated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>after its effectiveness in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the cast.
Timing!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>If your debate is when is the rod straightening it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>is during/after a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration, not necessarily a stop. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration would be after a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>maximum tip velocity and the inability of the caster
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to maintain an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>acceleration, an action caused by the caster
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>intentionally slowing the rod
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(stopping) or unintentionally from running out of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>arm. Both have a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration. I would call attention to Steve
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Rajeff and other tournament
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>style casters where the the stop is the defining
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>mark between a good caster and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>great caster. Again, timing of the release would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>have something to do with this
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>but also energy transfer. A longer stop has more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>time to transfer energy and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>losing its effective timing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>If you are contending that the majority of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>energy has been transfered before
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the stop. I would say that definitely some of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>energy has been imparted to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the rod as the line is pulled through the air, if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>this were not the case the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>line would not be moving. Once the line is in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>motion it will continue at the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>speed of the tip, decreasing after energy is no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>longer being imparted to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>line in which case it is effected by gravity, air
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>resistance, etc. But the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>stop IS the point of energy transfer from rod to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>line and does impart more
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>energy into the cast than would be lost from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>counterflex or other ineffective
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>motions associated with the stop when done properly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>As for the swoop. I dont doubt that it can be a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>very effective technique. However, that doesnt mean
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>anything about the rod not stopping or decelerating.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>If we are using the same term for swoop, meaning a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>dipped down path to the hand
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the middle of the stroke to ensure a straight
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>path to the tip of the rod. A
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>maximum deceleration would occur at the end of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>stroke and
energy transfered
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to the fly line. I dont think that this is the most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>effective technique as it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>means less bend in the rod is happening than for a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>caster that is moving the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>hand in a arcing motion or even a straight line (if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>both casters are using the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>same rod and similar stroke length). But, if it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>works for the guy who
cares.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>As I said in an earlier e-mail style is very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>individual and there is more than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>one to get the job done. I have been told recently
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that my style is not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>appropriate either but I get decent results. Just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>not in pesky comps!!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I think I understand your discussion. The way I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>would break it down would be in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>two parts. The old lever and spring concept (lever
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and flexiable lever).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>1. Lever (non-flexiable as an example) energy is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>imparted directly to the line
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>as the line is pulled through the air. The line
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>will continue regarless
of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>stop. The line will keep moving only slowing as the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>line is acted on by air
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>resistance, friction, etc. This could happen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>regarless of the means of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>line being pulled, this is true since a flexed rod
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>as it moves through the air
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>is being flexed and is for this purpose not moving.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The same could be true
for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a broomstick or even hand casting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>2. Spring. The point where the flexiable lever,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the rod, is unflexing and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>transfering the energy to fly line, propelling it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>forward. The rod must flex
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and unflex to do this. I think this can be shown to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>be very effective
by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>having a flexed lever and unflexable lever cast next
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to each other. The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>efficiency of the flexiable lever imparting energy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to the fly line depends on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>many factors is effecient enough to have a net
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>increase in energy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Let me know if I am missing your
point.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jeff Wagner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jeff Wagner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of Fly Fishers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor
Gear
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Redington Pro Staff
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>970-481-5887
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>www.dhflyfishing.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Quoting Paul Arden <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hi
Jeff,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>my thoughts on this is that in a 170 degree
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>"stopless" arc the rod will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>straighten as theangle between the flyline and the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>rod butt becomes acute.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The loop is still top pointed so I assume this to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>be true. The energy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>stored in the bend rod has to go somewhere, either
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>through the
tip
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>or through the butt. If you're rotating the rod
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>through 170 while it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>unbending the energy is going to go through the tip
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>without the need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>for an abrupt stop. At least this is what I *think*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>is happening.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>What we really need is a high speed camera. I hope
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to have access to
one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>before I leave NZ.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Incidentally I know of a Spanish distance caster
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>who uses the swoop to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>cast into the mid
120s.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Paul
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jeff....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>You bring up some interesting
points.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I'll pass this on to the Group with the suggestion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that it may help to print this out and study it at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>leisure. There is a lot of thought going into
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>this
message.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Gordy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
;>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Jeff Wagner <jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: STOP?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 22:49:34 -0700
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Gordy,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This thread is very interesting. Hope you dont
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>mind if I put in a word.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree with Paul on a a few issues and you on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>others.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When casting, any speed that is directly applied
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to the rod is also applied to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the fly line. In which case the line will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>continue forward whether the rod
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stops or slows or just gets out of the way. We
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>can see this when we do a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thrust cast as paul notes. However is this the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>most efficient cast? I will
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> suggest
no, and state that it is possible to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>perform this cast with an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unflexible lever by simply slinging the line.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Any more distance is achieved by
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the energy imparted to the fly line by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>flexing (unflexing) of a fly rod.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> However, energy from the cast by a fly rod is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>imparted at some point in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cast. Where? It can only be during a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration after a maximum velocity is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> achieved. In other words for the distance caster
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>after the loading move the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speed up and the wrist flip we achieve maximum
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>velocity. At this point we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
could maintain this velocity however we usually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>run out of arm. In which case
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we decelerate and the rod unflexs and imparts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>energy into the fly line. Again
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evidence for this can be seen in casting a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>unflexible lever versus casting a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fly rod. We cast farther with a fly
rod.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The rate of deceleration I think is the key. As
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>can be seen in Bruce's fly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> casting analyzer. The faster the deceleration
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the more quickly the energy is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transfered to the rod and the more efficient the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>energy transfer is as the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> energy is not wasted over a
long period of time.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>This quick deceleration is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the difference between great casters like Rajeff
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and a beginner cast.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As you and Jeff noted it is possible to make to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>abrupt of a stop without taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> proper measures and shock the rod. However if
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>you watch Rajeff
and others like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> him they do take measures after a VERY abrupt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>stop often tilting the tip of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rod down and lifting the butt of the rod up
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(usually with very stiff rods that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rebound very quickly) to move the tip of the rod
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>out of the way of the oncoming
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fly line. An action needed because of the abrupt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>stop teamed with a very narrow
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> casting arc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have attemped to demonstrate this when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>casting. I will first carry a good
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> amount of line and on the final forward stroke
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>continue forward and lay the rod
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> down without really stopping the rod, simply
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>continuing the motion only changing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> direction toward the ground with the rod while
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the fly line continues to unroll.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Second, I cast normal and stop the rod abruptly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>causing counterflex in the rod.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The normal casts with a stop and subsuquently a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>counterflex always go farther. The cast which has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>no defined stop as in a thrust cast still has a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and energy transfered to the fly line this is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>unavoidable as the rod
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> straightens. However, a very long deceleration
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>or lack of a stop as we are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calling it here would transfer less
energy.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i would also note that at the veolcity reached
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>by many great distance casters it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> may be very difficult to bring the rod to a full
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>instantaneous stop. Instead
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the rod would continue forward and actually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>soften the stop
slightly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Still a defined quick deceleration of the rod
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>after maximum velocity of the tip
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will offer the best transfer of energy, the best
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>case scenario for distance
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> casting.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Jeff Wagner
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Federation of Fly Fishers
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Redington Pro Staff
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 970-481-5887
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.dhflyfishing.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Quoting Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Paul... We are getting a little complicated
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>for many in
our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Group, here. My brief comments in your text in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>BOLD CAPS. > >Gordy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >-------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > From: /"Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Reply-To: /"Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >To: /"Gordon Hill"
<hillshead@xxxxxxx>/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Subject: /Re: Actual demo of ESSENTIALS/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Date: /Fri, 13 Jan 2006 23:32:15 -0000/
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Hi Gordy,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >The reason I'd like to see casting arc included
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in (3) is because it >deals with progressive
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >rod bending and is quite specific. It's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>possible to make a long cast >a short stroke
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>length,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >underhand casting styles for example. Bruce
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Richards reckons drag
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >[translational rod movement
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >pre-butt rotation] removes slack, Bill Gammel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>thinks it removes sag, >I think it adds Kinetic
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Energy. It probably does all three. But I don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>think increasing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >stroke length is an essential
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >whereas widening the casting arc most certainly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>is. I AGREE THAT,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >\"STROKE LENGTH\" DOESN'T COVER IT ALL. AS I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>LOOK AT IT , TIP
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>TRAVEL IS >MOST IMPORTANT......A COMBINATION OF
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>STROKE LENGTH, ROD (CASTING) ARC, >AND ANY OTHER
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>TRANSLATIONAL MOVEMENTS IN THE DIRECTION OF THE
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CAST. (WE >MUST REMEMBER THAT BACK WHEN THESE WERE
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>WRITTEN, MANY WERE USING THE
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >TERM, \"STROKE LENGTH\" TO MEAN WHAT
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>WE >NOW CALL, \"TIP TRAVEL\".) PRE-BUTT ROTATION,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>\"PULL\", \"DRAG\" OR >ANY TRANSLATIONAL MOTION
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>IN THE DIRECTION OF THE CAST PROBABLY
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >_DOES_ REMOVE SLACK AND SAG AND ADDS KINETIC
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ENERGY.......ALL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>THREE (AS >I SEE IT.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >(6) is very interesting. Something I teach, is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to say "stop harder". >What is someone
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >doing when they think "stop
harder"? Hopefully
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>they're squeezing the >hand, which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >results in rotating the butt at the end of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>stroke, which is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >"proper power application". I THINK YOU ARE
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>RIGHT. FLOYD FRANKE
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>PUTS IT >THIS WAY WHEN HE TEACHES THIS : \"SQUEEZE
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>TO A STOP\". HELPS A LOT WITH >ACCURACY CASTING,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>TOO.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >I'd like to say I knew the answer here, but I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>don't. The argument
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >for an abrupt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >stop is that it gives a more efficient transfer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of energy from rod
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >to line, but on
a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >170 casting arc I reckon that most of that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>energy has already been >transferred
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >before the stop. Where's the stop on a swoop or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a thrust, for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >example?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >If it's at the end of thrust the rod's hit RSP,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>energy's been
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >transferred and you
may as
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >well drop the rod. YES. THIS IS GROUND UPON
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>WHICH FEW DARE TO TROD >!.......WE RISK BEING
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CALLED HERETICS. ON THE SO-CALLED, \"THRUST
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >CAST\" AS WELL AS THE, \"SWOOP\" IT DOES APPEAR
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>THAT YOU'VE
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ALREADY >GONE PAST RSP. HERE, THE TRUE STOP IS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>WHEN, \"YOU RUN OUT OF ARM\". OF >COURSE THE ROD
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>IS STRAIGHT AT THE END OF THE THRUST.....BUT THAT
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>MAY >HAVE OCCURRED A SPLIT SECOND EARLIER. I'VE
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SEEN LEFTY DEMO THIS AND >LITERALLY DROP THE ROD
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ON THE GROUND AFTER THE THRUST. THE LOOP SHOOTS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >OUT WITH TREMENDOUS SPEED AND ITS DIRECTION IS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>UNCHANGED. BEST NOT TO >TEACH THAT THRUST WIND
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CAST EXCEPT TO ADVANCED CASTERS WHO
HAVE ENOUGH
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >CONTROL TO AVOID ELBOW INJURY.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Sorry I know this is not very good teaching for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a study group. Some >day we'll
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >know everything and then we'll try our best to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>forget it all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Incidentally I find emphasising "power
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>application" as opposed to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >"stop" can have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >a more positive effect. Just a different way of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>getting the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >stroke nailed. I HOPE WE NEVER DO KNOW
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>EVERYTHING ! IT WOULD BE
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>LIKE >FINDING THE, \"NEVER-FAIL\" FLY. I DO SO
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>LOVE GETTING INTO SUPER
>DETAIL....BUT I DON'T
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>WANT OUR GROUP TO LOSE SIGHT OF THE FOREST FOR
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >SAKE OF TOO MANY TREES. > GORDY
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Paul
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >PS I can't believe Tip Travel has already been
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>invented; we'll have >to
come
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >up with something different.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >PPS I shouldn't have eaten beans last night.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 7:13 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Subject: Re: Actual demo of ESSENTIALS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>Paul....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>Interesting points.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>On 3.)....."Short cast: short stroke, Long
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>cast: long stroke" is,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>as we both know, a gross oversimplification.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>For the long >>cast,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>we >>need a long distance travel for
the rod tip.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>We don't need it for the >>short cast. Of course,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>this is tip travel is produced by the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>combination of many things, including rod arc
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(casting arc),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>stroke >>length (as defined by the distance moved
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>by the hand) and, with >>very long casts, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>caster's body motion. Even a step forward
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>during the delivery stroke adds to that tip
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>travel.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>(Incidentally, the first reference in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>casting literature I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>could find was in J.C. Mottram's book, FLY
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CASTING,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>originally >>published in 1921. So the term is a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>resurrection not a new
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>coining.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>On 6.) One can have a whimpy stop (a mush) and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>still get the fly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>out there on target......but is that the most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>efficient way to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>do it >>?......I think
not.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>I simply can't make anywhere near the distance
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>on my distance cast >>with a soft stop. Just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>can't do it !
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>You call attention to the concept of crisp
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>application of power.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>Now if we have that anywhere in the
stroke
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>except in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>juxtaposition to >>the stop, we have a spike of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>power.......high liklihood of a tailing >>loop.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>Having said that, I realize fully that there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>are many casts which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>are done well with hardly a stop, or even no
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>real stop. These
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>include >>certain curve casts such as the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>corkscrew cast, the helicopter cast, >>and other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>decelerating curve casts....in fact,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>any >>purposely decelerated cast. It certainly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>includes the, "no stop" of >>the back cast during
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>what has been called the, "European continuous
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>tension cast" as well as other elliptical casts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>including the >>so-called, "Belgian cast".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>As I happen to look at it, a crisp stop is an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>essential for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>so-labelled, "straight line overhead
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>casting"......NOT ALL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CASTING,
>>BY ANY MEANS. If we look at it that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>way, you are absolutely >>CORRECT.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>Gordy
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>From: "Paul Arden"
<paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>Reply-To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>To: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>Subject: Re: Actual demo of ESSENTIALS
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 05:19:38 -0000
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>Hi Gordy,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>I've been thinking about the essentials listed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>below and I
don't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>agree that [6] is an essential.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>I think what's really happening when a caster
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>is thinking about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>making an abrupt stop
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>is that he's really making a crisp power
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>application [5]. There are >>quite a few
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>"stopless" casting
styles
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>including the TLT and Austrian style - which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>as you know is how
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>most Continental Europeans cast.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>I know that runs contrary to much of what we
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>teach but many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>distance casters don't use an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>abrupt stop either but integrate drift/swoop
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>into their stroke. I >>just sort of flop the rod
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>over
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>and hope.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>I used to think that the stop was the most
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>important thing in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>flycasting, I now think it restricts
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>distance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>I think [3] should be or include proper
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>casting arc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>I hope you're getting some good fishing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>Paul
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>> > Group...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > Following a suggestion by Molly Semenik, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>have one more >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >question on the 5 (or 6) ESSENTIALS.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > In your own words, describe what you would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>do to demonstrate
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
>clearly to a group of fly casting students,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>each essential.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>You may >> >use a fly outfit or any other
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>teaching prop or tool.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > 1.) Straight Line Path of Rod Tip - I have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a short (one foot)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >section of a rod tip complete with tip top
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>guide. It >> enables
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>me to >> >hold the short section up to eye level
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and while moving it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>back >>and >forth as per casting strokes, I can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>use the other hand to >>clearly >demonstrate the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>straight line path by accompanying the rod >>tip
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>with >the flat palm of my other
hand.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > 2.) Eliminate Slack - When teaching, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>always stress this very
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >early in the lesson. I have always liked and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>used Lefty's >> way
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of >> >putting this. With the line laying out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>about 30' with a bit of >> >slack, he points to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the fly and leader and states: "Ain't nothing >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >gonna happen until that fly starts to move."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>After stating that >> >fact, I demonstrate how
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>much of the back stroke is wasted pulling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >out slack that was not removed. I also, to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>indicate the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>uselessness
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >of slack in casting and to interject a little
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>levity >>as a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bit of an >ice breaker, use the analogy of a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>drunk pulling a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>chain down the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >street, when asked by a very proper lady, why he
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>is >>pulling
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a chain,
>he replies, "Lady, did you ever try
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>pushing one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>of these things?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > 3.) Short Line - Short Stroke, Long Line -
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Long Stroke - I use
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >analogies here also. To indicate proper
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>stroke length, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>pantomine >>
>throwing a line-drive baseball,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>which requires a short straight line >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >throw/stroke for a close throw and a longer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>straight >>stroke for a >longer ball. I also have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the student watch the rod as >>I make longer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >strokes while adding line.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > 4.) Pause - I like to use the term
-Timely
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Pause - With >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >beginners I try to have them temporarily adapt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to a 90% stance
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>and >watch their back cast straighten (almost
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>straighten). >>This
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>has >>a >dual-fold purpose, as it allows them to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>see the line trajectory >>and >often helps to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>keep their back casts up where they belong. If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>the >individual has trouble watching their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>back cast, I revert >>again to >one of Lefty's old
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>methods. I ask them where they are >>from, and I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >instruct them to make a back cast while pausing
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>long
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>enough to
state
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >their name and where they are from. It works
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>like >>a charm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>on a 30' >cast.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > 5.) Proper Application of Power. - When
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>explaining power and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >how to apply it, I have started to use a term
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that
I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>believe >> >our
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>own >Gordy has coined, and that is "An
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>accelerated >>acceleration
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to a >> >stop", I have never heard it explained
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>better. For this all >>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >important step I also use hands on guidance with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>permission.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>There >are many analogies for this also, such
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>as driving in >>low
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>gear >>then >shifting to second and finally high.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > 6.) Abrupt Stop - When trying to explain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the importance of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >stop, I allude to the elite distance
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>caster's (Steve >> Rajeff)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>words, >> >when he was asked:
What do the best
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>casters do that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>other's >>fail to >do? And he replied; "They stop
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the rod." As to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>demonstrating this, I >again like to, with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>permission of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>course, use >>hands on. It is a >wonderful way to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>have the student actually feel >>the abruptness of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >the required stop. Here again there are many
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>visual >>aids we can >apply, throwing water at a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>wall off of a paint brush, >>slinging an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >apple from a dowel rod and so on.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > Since I have a plethora of beginners here
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the Catskills, I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >have printed out little cards (laminated)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>with the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>essentials >> listed >and hand them out at the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>end of a one day lesson. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>tell >> them to put >them in their wallet or
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>purse and refer to them if >> necessary when >they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>are practicing, and then I always add; "You
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>do >>plan to >practice, don't
you?"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
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