Paul...
I see what you are getting at.
I look at the casting arc as: " The angular change in the position of the butt section of the rod from the beginning to the end of the stroke."
Creep, I think, is most often unintended.....but once in a blue moon could be a purposeful move to shorten the stroke. One way I've been looking at it, is that it is : "An unaccelerated slow motion of the rod tip opposite the direction of an unrolling or newly unrolled loop." Looking at it that way (as Bill Gammel does) it has the effect of shortening the available stroke length.
One can have this CREEP in either direction.
(Even the term, "unaccelerated" isn't strictly correct, because when the motion is begun there has to be minute acceleration to go from zero to even slow movement.)
Jury is still out.
Gordy
From: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: STOP?
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 01:44:31 -0000
Hi Gordy,
I like Tip Travel and think it's very clever. It's definitely a word I'll use more often,
but the five essentials - and I'm talking about Bill's 5 here -
are a construct, not simply five important things to make you a better caster,
but a structured analysis of any straight line cast that all combine together.
The only cast that doesn't fit, is Rick Hartman. I don't think it
does break the construct to be perfectly honest, only that
it prefers power application to SLP. The SLP is in there and the
construct will still work if you define "casting arc" to fit correctly.
Don't ask me to define it, however, I've had enough trouble
with "creep".
Cheers,
Paul
>Paul...
>
>Interesting to think about your, "filter" theory, especially since
>if we get down to nit picking details, we can find a reason to get
>away from any one of these essentials......especially as we get into
>more sophisticated casts.
>
>Your idea that the one on, "POWER" may be the most important, might
>well be on target, even though it flies in the face of conventional
>wisdom. However, in chosing rod arc over stroke length as most
>significant under that heading, why not choose, instead, the
>distance traveled by the rod tip....ie. TIP TRAVEL ? (My reasoning
>is that tip travel is the composite result of both stroke length and
>rod arc.)
>
>As I see it is THAT which we are trying to match up with the amount
>of line carried and relate to the bend of the rod.
>
>
>Gordy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> From: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Reply-To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: "Jeff Wagner" <jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> CC: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
> Subject: Re: STOP?
> Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2006 02:37:31 -0000
> OK, Jeff, if you knock out the SLP as being an action and
> result of the other 4, and instead consider it something that
> just happens in a 170/180 stroke (and it must be flat at some
>point since the loop is top pointed) then you've also eliminated
>matching the casting arc to rod bend.
>
> All you're left with is power application, elimination of slack
> and proper timing.
>
> Don't misunderstand me, Bill's 5 Essentials are the product of a
>brilliant mind (which is quite surprising since Bill's
> from Texas), and there is nothing quite like them, especially
> combined with Bruce's six steps, but they're not "essentials"
> in the true sense, they're simply a "filter" you can apply over
>any
> straight line cast and the more "essentials" you create the
> easier it becomes to break the filter.
>
> I find it interesting that if you have 5 essentials the most
>important is the SLP and the others are components necessary for
>this to occur. If you have one essential
> it is proper power application.
>
> FWIW I don't think stroke length is an essential. The correct
>essential that makes sense in this case is casting arc.
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Wagner"
><jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Cc: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 11:13 PM
> Subject: Re: STOP?
>
>
> >Alright you baited me in.
> >
> >What other two essentials are not met by this.
> >
> >In a distance cast we have (in no particular order):
> >
> >1. Fly line follows the path of the rod tip. Which as stated in a
> >distance
> >cast the fly line follows the path of the rod tip. Which it does
>in >a distance
> >cast, I lift in my final back cast and come forward hard rotating
>at >the end to
> >give me a straight line path of the tip and some counter flex
>which >can pull
> >the bottom leg of the loop down to give a wedge.
> >
> >2. Long stroke easier cast. No problem there, need a long stroke!
> >
> >3. Progrssive speed up to a stop (I combine those for my
>teaching), >again both
> >true I have to have a progressive speed up or acceleration to a
>stop >(dont
> >start on the stop again!lol)
> >
> >4. Tension in the system. For sure, any slack would be disastrous
> >for
> >distance, and even a slight amount minimizes the best distance
>cast >(dont start
> >on slack, in my definition it is the most efficient path for the
>fly >line to
> >take, usually a perfectly straight line).
> >
> >--
> >Jeff Wagner
> >
> >Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly
>Fishers
> >Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
> >Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
> >Redington Pro Staff
> >970-481-5887
> >jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >www.dhflyfishing.com
> >
> >
> >Quoting Paul Arden <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
> >
> >>Hiya Jeff,
> >>
> >>No I was reading this bit:
> >>
> >>"And I can make a crisp stop without any rotation at all, I can
> >>make
> >>>>wtih simply
> >>>>linear movement"
> >>
> >>That's a tail.
> >>
> >>Hard to imagine SLP on a 170 arc but I agree it's in there
> >>somewhere. So much for matching casting arc to rod bend.
> >>It must just happen, which is handy. Sort of means you don't
> >>have to worry about it and can just flop over as far and as fast
>as >>possible. There goes another two essentials by the way...
> >>
> >>Cheers,
> >>Paul
> >>
> >>----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Wagner"
> >><jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>Sent: Tuesday, January 24, 2006 5:07 AM
> >>Subject: Re: STOP?
> >>
> >>
> >>>You misread the e-mail Paul. I stated that if you continued to
> >>>rotate through
> >>>you would have a wide loop, which means you are creating a
>domed >>>path to the
> >>>rod, not a dipped down path.
> >>>
> >>>I agree about the 170 degree arc, but the reason is you have a
> >>>straight line
> >>>path to the rod tip, or roughly so. I have an almost 170 degree
> >>>arc as do
> >>>several other casters I have watched video. I think you will
> >>>notice a great
> >>>deal of them have an initial slight lift after the drift which
> >>>brings the tip
> >>>to a level that as the forward motiona and rotation occur allow
> >>>for a stright
> >>>line path. Then a slight elevated forward trajectory to
>accomodate >>>for line
> >>>drop as the line unrolls. Of course all rod paths are not
>exactly >>>straight at
> >>>the end of the stroke (as shown my Al Kyte), they are slightly
> >>>domed at the
> >>>end.
> >>>
> >>>--
> >>>Jeff Wagner
> >>>
> >>>Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly
>Fishers
> >>>Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
> >>>Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
> >>>Redington Pro Staff
> >>>970-481-5887
> >>>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>www.dhflyfishing.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Quoting Paul Arden <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
> >>>
> >>>>I don't understand Jeff, if you don't rotate the loop tails.
> >>>>But yes, you certainly can do this. You're right, it wouldn't
>be >>>>very competitive.
> >>>>
> >>>>Wrong link - I do that sometimes:
> >>>>http://www.sexyloops.com/movies/shuffle.shtml You don't get a
> >>>>wide loop with a Hartman 170 or 180 arc, which is of course
> >>>>quite interesting and means there's a shortfall in our
> >>>>understanding which we hope to fix soon.
> >>>>
> >>>>Cheers,
> >>>>Paul
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Wagner"
> >>>><jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>Cc: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
> >>>>Sent: Monday, January 23, 2006 3:33 PM
> >>>>Subject: Re: STOP?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>The link didnt take me to any video.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>And I can make a crisp stop without any rotation at all, I
>can >>>>>make wtih simply
> >>>>>linear movement. Obviously that isnt the best case scenario
>for >>>>>distance.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Rotation certainly adds A LOT OF SPEED. And a crisp stop
>helps. >>>>> I dont think
> >>>>>that is debatable. I can have great rotation without ever
> >>>>>exatually stopping
> >>>>>the rod but continuing through with the rotation in which
>case I >>>>>would end up
> >>>>>with a wide loop. I think there is more to it, as I have
> >>>>>outline. But not
> >>>>>sure we are getting any further.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>--
> >>>>>Jeff Wagner
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly
> >>>>>Fishers
> >>>>>Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
> >>>>>Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
> >>>>>Redington Pro Staff
> >>>>>970-481-5887
> >>>>>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>>www.dhflyfishing.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Quoting Paul Arden <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>Hi Jeff,
> >>>>>>Sure I stop the rod, but by the time I've stopped the energy
> >>>>>>has been transferred. Dunno which video you're looking at
>but >>>>>>the
> >>>>>>most recent is
> >>>>>>http://www.sexyloops.com/movies/shufflecast/shuffle.mpg
> >>>>>>Interesting contrast to
> >>>>>>http://www.sexyloops.com/movies/distancecast/distancecast2.mpg
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>"The problem with your description is that is
> >>>>>>>not always true. In a very short cast the angle could be a
> >>>>>>>90."
> >>>>>>In which case it's not a stopless cast.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>I'm not arguing that a crisp stop isn't a good thing; I
>think >>>>>>it often is but
> >>>>>>not because of "efficient energy transfer", but rather
>because >>>>>>the crisp
> >>>>>>stop is preceded by sharp butt rotation and that's the key.
>The >>>>>>stop is
> >>>>>>a stop, for many years I fell into the trap of mixing butt
>stop >>>>>>with butt rotation.
> >>>>>>I think that's what you are doing now.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Cheers,
> >>>>>>Paul
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Wagner"
> >>>>>><jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>Cc: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 4:55 AM
> >>>>>>Subject: Re: STOP?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Paul,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>I think we are on the same track no matter how much of what
>I >>>>>>>say you agree,
> >>>>>>>because about half of what you are saying doesnt make any
> >>>>>>>sense to me.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Power application is just that, the application of power.
> >>>>>>>Energy transfer is
> >>>>>>>just that the transfer of energy. I can hold a rod in mind
> >>>>>>>hand that is loaded
> >>>>>>>full of energy because I applied a force to the rod to make
>it >>>>>>>move and then
> >>>>>>>applied a force (energy) to make it stop. It is at this
>point >>>>>>>where the rod
> >>>>>>>butt has stopped that the rod tip can unflex and the energy
> >>>>>>>can transfer into
> >>>>>>>the rod. The application part has stopped (in a physical
> >>>>>>>sense of me applying
> >>>>>>>force tot he rod) and now the energy stored in the bent rod
>is >>>>>>>being release..
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>The way I see it in my minds eye the angle is acute with
>the >>>>>>>butt of the rod
> >>>>>>>and the fly line. The tip of the rod could be pointed
> >>>>>>>forward, the butt toward
> >>>>>>>the caster and the fly line would be attached to the tip
>and >>>>>>>pointing in the
> >>>>>>>same direction as the butt toward the caster. In this
> >>>>>>>description Yes the more
> >>>>>>>straight the rod becomes the more energy has been
>transfered. >>>>>>>I agree with
> >>>>>>>that. I said that in several previous e-mails by stating
>that >>>>>>>as the rod
> >>>>>>>unflexes the energy is released. The problem with your
> >>>>>>>description is that is
> >>>>>>>not always true. In a very short cast the angle could be a
> >>>>>>>90.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Of course rod rotation and rod unbending give more energy
>and >>>>>>>speed to the cast,
> >>>>>>>that is not debatable. An angular rotation at any velocity
>is >>>>>>>a continuous
> >>>>>>>acceleration which gives a great load to the rod but also
> >>>>>>>increases line speed
> >>>>>>>dircetly.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Of the video of you distace casting that I have seen on the
> >>>>>>>website and last
> >>>>>>>year at the conclave. I thought I saw a stop. It may not be
> >>>>>>>the classic stop
> >>>>>>>that youa re thinking of but there is definitley a quick
> >>>>>>>deceleration.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>--
> >>>>>>>Jeff Wagner
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly
> >>>>>>>Fishers
> >>>>>>>Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
> >>>>>>>Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
> >>>>>>>Redington Pro Staff
> >>>>>>>970-481-5887
> >>>>>>>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>>>>www.dhflyfishing.com
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>--
> >>>>>>>Jeff Wagner
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of Fly
> >>>>>>>Fishers
> >>>>>>>Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
> >>>>>>>Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
> >>>>>>>Redington Pro Staff
> >>>>>>>970-481-5887
> >>>>>>>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>>>>www.dhflyfishing.com
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Quoting Paul Arden <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Hi Jeff,
> >>>>>>>>I disagree with about half of what you've written below.
> >>>>>>>>Power application is the transfer of energy from hand to
> >>>>>>>>rod butt.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>The only thing I can add to anything I've written earlier
>is >>>>>>>>this:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>As the angle the butt makes to the line becomes acute,
> >>>>>>>>ie approaches zero, the load on the tip diminishes,
> >>>>>>>>the rod straightens and transfers energy to the line.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>I believe this results in a higher tip speed and not lower
> >>>>>>>>since tip speed has now become a combination of
> >>>>>>>>rod rotation and rod unbending and not rod unbending
>alone.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>For what it's worth I use a stopless cast for distance.for
> >>>>>>>>seven weights and below. I don't have the strength to
> >>>>>>>>do it with heavier lines.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>Paul
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Wagner"
> >>>>>>>><jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>Cc: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 5:47 PM
> >>>>>>>>Subject: Re: STOP?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>I think we are saying the exact same thing. Power
> >>>>>>>>>application is energy
> >>>>>>>>>transfer. If the power application is over a longer
>period >>>>>>>>>of time then it is
> >>>>>>>>>a longer energy dissipation. Power application and energy
> >>>>>>>>>go hand in hand. The pooint of a power application is to
> >>>>>>>>>transfer energy from our body to the
> >>>>>>>>>rod and to the fly line. If we are talking specifically
> >>>>>>>>>about rod unload the
> >>>>>>>>>energy is being transfered to the fly line from the rod.
>If >>>>>>>>>we are talking
> >>>>>>>>>about a classic power application meaning the speed up to
>a >>>>>>>>>stop we are
> >>>>>>>>>applying energy. But in a lazy stop the dissipation is
> >>>>>>>>>occuring over a longer
> >>>>>>>>>period of time. To this I mean that there is only so much
> >>>>>>>>>energy that will be
> >>>>>>>>>transfered to the fly line as the rod unflexes. If this
> >>>>>>>>>happens quick a great
> >>>>>>>>>deal of energy will be transfered to the line in an
> >>>>>>>>>effective instant when the
> >>>>>>>>>line is begining to move beyond the rod. If I were to
> >>>>>>>>>exagerate this movement
> >>>>>>>>>by decelerating slowly the fly line could continue to
>move >>>>>>>>>forward while I move
> >>>>>>>>>the rod down or to the side slightly, with a short cast
>the >>>>>>>>>line could
> >>>>>>>>>completely unroll before I have stopped the rod fully. If
> >>>>>>>>>the line unrolls
> >>>>>>>>>fully and then I fully stop by a continual deceleration
>no >>>>>>>>>effective energy
> >>>>>>>>>would be transfered. In which my timing sucks. If I would
> >>>>>>>>>have stopped the
> >>>>>>>>>rod more abruptly then the energy would have been used
>more >>>>>>>>>effectively.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>I am not sure how you can say power application is the
> >>>>>>>>>problem. In the classic
> >>>>>>>>>sense of the word the power application is getting the
>rod >>>>>>>>>to bend. If we are
> >>>>>>>>>taling about a deceleration (lazy stop) then the power
> >>>>>>>>>application is already
> >>>>>>>>>over. However, since power application is such a broad
>term >>>>>>>>>it could be used
> >>>>>>>>>to describe the power applied to create the stop. As
>could >>>>>>>>>energy, we could
> >>>>>>>>>say energy has to be applied to the rod to make it stop.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>I am not sure where we are going with this?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>--
> >>>>>>>>>Jeff Wagner
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of
>Fly >>>>>>>>>Fishers
> >>>>>>>>>Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
> >>>>>>>>>Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
> >>>>>>>>>Redington Pro Staff
> >>>>>>>>>970-481-5887
> >>>>>>>>>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>>>>>>www.dhflyfishing.com
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>Quoting Paul Arden <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>Hi Jeff,
> >>>>>>>>>>I disagree that the "problem" with a lazy stop is energy
> >>>>>>>>>>transfer.
> >>>>>>>>>>It may be power application, it may be tip path, but it
>is >>>>>>>>>>not
> >>>>>>>>>>energy transfer.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>"A very rapid
> >>>>>>>>>>>deceleration more effectively transfers the energy into
> >>>>>>>>>>>the fly line, because
> >>>>>>>>>>>it is a over a short period of time."
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>The transfer of energy is not time dependent.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>>>Paul
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Wagner"
> >>>>>>>>>><jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>Cc: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:44 PM
> >>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: STOP?
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>Paul,
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>The enregy that is transfered anytime very rarely stays
>in >>>>>>>>>>>one from. While a
> >>>>>>>>>>>great deal of energy would be a movement a kinetic
>energy >>>>>>>>>>>as most know it. It
> >>>>>>>>>>>will still produce some heat and some sound (possibly)
> >>>>>>>>>>>although they may be
> >>>>>>>>>>>very minimal the transfer is not 100% motion. Friction
> >>>>>>>>>>>between the fibers,
> >>>>>>>>>>>much like friction between uscle fibers, will create
>some >>>>>>>>>>>heat. You asked what
> >>>>>>>>>>>type of energy I guess I misread the problem.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>What I was trying to convey is that wether a very long
> >>>>>>>>>>>deceleration or a very
> >>>>>>>>>>>short deceleration (stop as we think of it), energy is
> >>>>>>>>>>>still transfered from
> >>>>>>>>>>>the flexed rod to the fly line as the rod unflexes
> >>>>>>>>>>>propelling the line forward.
> >>>>>>>>>>>The difference between these decelerations is how much
>of >>>>>>>>>>>the energy would be
> >>>>>>>>>>>usable to efficiently propelling the fly line forward.
>A >>>>>>>>>>>very rapid
> >>>>>>>>>>>deceleration more effectively transfers the energy into
> >>>>>>>>>>>the fly line, because
> >>>>>>>>>>>it is a over a short period of time. This concept is
> >>>>>>>>>>>similar to the timig of
> >>>>>>>>>>>the release of the haul. I will not describe as I think
>we >>>>>>>>>>>could get off on
> >>>>>>>>>>>another tangent as that is another greatly debated
>topic. >>>>>>>>>>>But it is more
> >>>>>>>>>>>effective releasing at one time during the stroke. The
> >>>>>>>>>>>same could be said for
> >>>>>>>>>>>the stop and the transfer of energy from the rod to the
> >>>>>>>>>>>fly line. A slow
> >>>>>>>>>>>deceleration releases the energy over a longer period
>of >>>>>>>>>>>time with less energy
> >>>>>>>>>>>being trasnfered at any one instant, thus transfering
>less >>>>>>>>>>>energy into the fly
> >>>>>>>>>>>line at any one instance.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>--
> >>>>>>>>>>>Jeff Wagner
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation of
>Fly >>>>>>>>>>>Fishers
> >>>>>>>>>>>Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
> >>>>>>>>>>>Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
> >>>>>>>>>>>Redington Pro Staff
> >>>>>>>>>>>970-481-5887
> >>>>>>>>>>>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>>>>>>>>www.dhflyfishing.com
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>Quoting Paul Arden <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>Hi Jeff,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>"The energy would be in the form of heat, movemenet,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>sound (very
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>little)."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>Are you saying the rod gets hotter with a lazy stop?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>Movement I can understand, the energy is dissipated
>from >>>>>>>>>>>>rod to line
> >>>>>>>>>>>>or better stated, transferred.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>That's how I understand it anyway.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>Paul
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Wagner"
> >>>>>>>>>>>><jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>Cc: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:48 AM
> >>>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: STOP?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Paul,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Eergy dissipated on a lazy stop is simply dissipated
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>over a longer period of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>time and less of the energy would be transfered and
>used >>>>>>>>>>>>>in prepolling the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>line. The energy would be in the form of heat,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>movemenet, sound (very little).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>But to me its not what it is transferred as but when,
>it >>>>>>>>>>>>>is the timing. If I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>cast 40 feet of line and make two consecutive casts 1
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>with a solid stop and the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>other with a longer stop a wider loop would form and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>less line speed would be
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>achieved. I think this can be shown definitely
>through >>>>>>>>>>>>>casting, but also
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>through the casting analyzer which measures those
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>variables. Of course it is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>possible to cast 40 feet with with no actual stop and
>a >>>>>>>>>>>>>very long decelerationa
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>dn get good results because it is very easy to
>achieve >>>>>>>>>>>>>that much power on such a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>short line, but that is not the point of the
>exercise.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>On your second poit that a decleration occurs before
>a >>>>>>>>>>>>>stop. Of course that is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>true. I dont think that is a revelation! You have to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>decelerate to stop. A
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>car doesnt just cese to move some energy must be put
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>into making it slow down
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>to a stop. The same is true of the casting arm and
>fly >>>>>>>>>>>>>rod.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>When I mentioned maximum tip velocity below it was a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>maximum tip velocity before
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>any sort of deceleration had occured to make the rod
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>unflex. Which has to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>happen. There is no cast where a cast is made with no
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>help from the fly rod by
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>going from a flexed state to an unflexed state. The
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration may be very
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>slow and add very little but it still happens.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>In the swoop it may all be one fluid motion and it
>may >>>>>>>>>>>>>not have a solid stop. But, in order for a RSP to
>occur >>>>>>>>>>>>>a deceleration of the hand must occur which
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>allows the rod tip a nd fly line to begint overcome
>the >>>>>>>>>>>>>lower section of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>rod and the hand. The hand may not be stopped, or the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>butt for that matter,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>but a deceleration has occured.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>When you say butt, do you mean the very bottom of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>rod below the hand. I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>know this sounds stupid. But if that is the case then
>I >>>>>>>>>>>>>would say that the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>stop is almost imperceptable and we are seeing a
>follow >>>>>>>>>>>>>through. Similar to a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>motion in a drift. I think this happens almost every
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>great casters cast. However, a massive deceleration
>has >>>>>>>>>>>>>occured to allow the ro to get to RSP then
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>a follow through.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>--
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Jeff Wagner
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation
>of >>>>>>>>>>>>>Fly Fishers
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Redington Pro Staff
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>970-481-5887
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>www.dhflyfishing.com
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>Quoting Paul Arden <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hi Jeff,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>There are a couple of things I don't agree with
>below:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>" quicker
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration means a greater amount of energy would
>be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>transferred more quickly
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>into the flyline and less of it would be dissipated
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>after its effectiveness in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the cast."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>How do you see energy being dissipated on a "lazy
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>stop"? And in what form?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>"But the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>stop IS the point of energy transfer from rod to
>line >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and does impart more
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>energy into the cast than would be lost from
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>counterflex or other ineffective
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>motions associated with the stop when done
>properly.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>"
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>When the rod is unbending it is transferring energy
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>from rod to line, this begins
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>when the rod butt is being decelerated/angle of line
>to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>rod becomes acute.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>This *always* occurs prior to butt stop.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>"The deceleration would be after a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>maximum tip velocity and the inability of the
>caster >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to maintain an
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>acceleration, an action caused by the caster
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>intentionally slowing the rod
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(stopping) or unintentionally from running out of
>arm"
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Maximum tip velocity occurs at Rod Straight Position
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>which normally
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>occurs after the stop, but in some cases can occur
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>during the stroke
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>(making the stop a non-essential)..
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>The swoop stroke I am thinking of, pulls down with
>no >>>>>>>>>>>>>>butt rotation,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>rotates the butt around a fixed point and then
>drives >>>>>>>>>>>>>>upward,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>pointing the rod in the direction of the cast.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>It's all one fluid motion. RSP occurs before butt
>stop.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>I know the recognised theory, Jeff, but I don't
>think >>>>>>>>>>>>>>it's complete.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Paul
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Wagner"
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>><jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Cc: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 4:49 AM
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: STOP?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Paul,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>A minor point. You can have a stopless cast. But
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>every cast has a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration. even if that deceleration is over a
>long >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>period of time or large
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>distance.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>IF I understand your description properly there is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>still a deceleration in the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>rod at the end of the stroke or in this case when
>170 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>degrees is attained. Any
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration from a maximum tip velocity will cause
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the tip to straighten. And
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>consequently energy to transfer from the rod to the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>fly line. Since it is the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>tip that is unbending and has the motion most of
>the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>energy would be expelled
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>through the tip. The amount of energy that would go
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>into the cast would depend
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>on several variables including the time of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration, a quicker
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration means a greater amount of energy would
>be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>transfered more quickly
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>into the flyline and less of it would be dissipated
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>after its effectiveness in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the cast. Timing!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>If your debate is when is the rod straightening it
>is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>during/after a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration, not necessarily a stop. The
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration would be after a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>maximum tip velocity and the inability of the
>caster >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to maintain an
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>acceleration, an action caused by the caster
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>intentionally slowing the rod
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(stopping) or unintentionally from running out of
>arm. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Both have a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration. I would call attention to Steve
>Rajeff >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and other tournament
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>style casters where the the stop is the defining
>mark >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>between a good caster and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>great caster. Again, timing of the release would
>have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>something to do with this
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>but also energy transfer. A longer stop has more
>time >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to transfer energy and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>losing its effective timing.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>If you are contending that the majority of the
>energy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>has been transfered before
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the stop. I would say that definitely some of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>energy has been imparted to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the rod as the line is pulled through the air, if
>this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>were not the case the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>line would not be moving. Once the line is in
>motion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>it will continue at the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>speed of the tip, decreasing after energy is no
>longer >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>being imparted to the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>line in which case it is effected by gravity, air
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>resistance, etc. But the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>stop IS the point of energy transfer from rod to
>line >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and does impart more
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>energy into the cast than would be lost from
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>counterflex or other ineffective
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>motions associated with the stop when done
>properly.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>As for the swoop. I dont doubt that it can be a
>very >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>effective technique. However, that doesnt mean
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>anything about the rod not stopping or decelerating.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>If we are using the same term for swoop, meaning a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>dipped down path to the hand
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the middle of the stroke to ensure a straight
>path >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to the tip of the rod. A
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>maximum deceleration would occur at the end of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>stroke and energy transfered
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to the fly line. I dont think that this is the most
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>effective technique as it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>means less bend in the rod is happening than for a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>caster that is moving the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>hand in a arcing motion or even a straight line (if
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>both casters are using the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>same rod and similar stroke length). But, if it
>works >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>for the guy who cares.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>As I said in an earlier e-mail style is very
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>individual and there is more than
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>one to get the job done. I have been told recently
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that my style is not
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>appropriate either but I get decent results. Just
>not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in pesky comps!!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I think I understand your discussion. The way I
>would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>break it down would be in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>two parts. The old lever and spring concept (lever
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and flexiable lever).
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>1. Lever (non-flexiable as an example) energy is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>imparted directly to the line
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>as the line is pulled through the air. The line
>will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>continue regarless of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>stop. The line will keep moving only slowing as the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>line is acted on by air
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>resistance, friction, etc. This could happen
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>regarless of the means of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>line being pulled, this is true since a flexed rod
>as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>it moves through the air
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>is being flexed and is for this purpose not moving.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The same could be true for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a broomstick or even hand casting.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>2. Spring. The point where the flexiable lever, the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>rod, is unflexing and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>transfering the energy to fly line, propelling it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>forward. The rod must flex
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and unflex to do this. I think this can be shown to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>be very effective by
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>having a flexed lever and unflexable lever cast
>next >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to each other. The
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>efficiency of the flexiable lever imparting energy
>to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the fly line depends on
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>many factors is effecient enough to have a net
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>increase in energy.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Let me know if I am missing your point.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jeff Wagner
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jeff Wagner
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor, Federation
>of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Fly Fishers
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Redington Pro Staff
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>970-481-5887
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>www.dhflyfishing.com
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Quoting Paul Arden <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Hi Jeff,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>my thoughts on this is that in a 170 degree
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>"stopless" arc the rod will
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>straighten as theangle between the flyline and the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>rod butt becomes acute.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>The loop is still top pointed so I assume this to
>be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>true. The energy
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>stored in the bend rod has to go somewhere, either
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>through the tip
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>or through the butt. If you're rotating the rod
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>through 170 while it's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>unbending the energy is going to go through the
>tip >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>without the need
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>for an abrupt stop. At least this is what I
>*think* >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>is happening.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>What we really need is a high speed camera. I hope
>to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>have access to one
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>before I leave NZ.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Incidentally I know of a Spanish distance caster
>who >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>uses the swoop to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>cast into the mid 120s.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Paul
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jeff....
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>You bring up some interesting points.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I'll pass this on to the Group with the
>suggestion >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that it may help to print this out and
>study it at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>leisure. There is a lot of thought
>going into this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>message.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Gordy
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>> ;>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Jeff Wagner <jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: STOP?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 22:49:34 -0700
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gordy,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This thread is very interesting. Hope you dont
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>mind if I put in a word.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree with Paul on a a few issues and you on
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>others.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When casting, any speed that is directly applied
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to the rod is also applied to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the fly line. In which case the line will
>continue >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>forward whether the rod
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> stops or slows or just gets out of the way. We
>can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>see this when we do a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thrust cast as paul notes. However is this the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>most efficient cast? I will
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> suggest no, and state that it is possible to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>perform this cast with an
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unflexible lever by simply slinging the line.
>Any >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>more distance is achieved by
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the energy imparted to the fly line by the
>flexing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(unflexing) of a fly rod.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> However, energy from the cast by a fly rod is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>imparted at some point in the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cast. Where? It can only be during a
>deceleration >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>after a maximum velocity is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> achieved. In other words for the distance caster
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>after the loading move the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speed up and the wrist flip we achieve maximum
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>velocity. At this point we
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> could maintain this velocity however we usually
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>run out of arm. In which case
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we decelerate and the rod unflexs and imparts
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>energy into the fly line. Again
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evidence for this can be seen in casting a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>unflexible lever versus casting a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fly rod. We cast farther with a fly rod.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The rate of deceleration I think is the key. As
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>can be seen in Bruce's fly
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> casting analyzer. The faster the deceleration
>the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>more quickly the energy is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transfered to the rod and the more efficient the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>energy transfer is as the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> energy is not wasted over a long period of time.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>This quick deceleration is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the difference between great casters like Rajeff
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and a beginner cast.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As you and Jeff noted it is possible to make to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>abrupt of a stop without taking
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> proper measures and shock the rod. However if
>you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>watch Rajeff and others like
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> him they do take measures after a VERY abrupt
>stop >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>often tilting the tip of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rod down and lifting the butt of the rod up
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(usually with very stiff rods that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rebound very quickly) to move the tip of the rod
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>out of the way of the oncoming
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fly line. An action needed because of the abrupt
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>stop teamed with a very narrow
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> casting arc.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have attemped to demonstrate this when
>casting. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I will first carry a good
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> amount of line and on the final forward stroke
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>continue forward and lay the rod
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> down without really stopping the rod, simply
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>continuing the motion only changing
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> direction toward the ground with the rod while
>the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>fly line continues to unroll.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Second, I cast normal and stop the rod abruptly
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>causing counterflex in the rod.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The normal casts with a stop and subsuquently a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>counterflex always go farther. The cast which has
>no >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>defined stop as in a thrust cast still has a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>deceleration
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and energy transfered to the fly line this is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>unavoidable as the rod
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> straightens. However, a very long deceleration
>or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>lack of a stop as we are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> calling it here would transfer less energy.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i would also note that at the veolcity reached
>by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>many great distance casters it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> may be very difficult to bring the rod to a full
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>instantaneous stop. Instead
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the rod would continue forward and actually
>soften >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the stop slightly.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Still a defined quick deceleration of the rod
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>after maximum velocity of the tip
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will offer the best transfer of energy, the best
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>case scenario for distance
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> casting.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jeff Wagner
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Master Certified Fly Casting Instructor,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Federation of Fly Fishers
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fly Fishing Buyer, Jax Outdoor Gear
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fly Fishing Guide, Jax Outdoor Gear
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Redington Pro Staff
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 970-481-5887
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> jeff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> www.dhflyfishing.com
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Quoting Gordon Hill <hillshead@xxxxxxx>:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Paul... We are getting a little complicated
>for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>many in our
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Group, here. My brief comments in your text in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>BOLD CAPS. > >Gordy
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >-------------------------
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > From: /"Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>/
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Reply-To: /"Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>/
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >To: /"Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>/
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Subject: /Re: Actual demo of ESSENTIALS/
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Date: /Fri, 13 Jan 2006 23:32:15 -0000/
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Hi Gordy,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >The reason I'd like to see casting arc included
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in (3) is because it >deals with progressive
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >rod bending and is quite specific. It's
>possible >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to make a long cast >a short stroke
>length,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >underhand casting styles for example. Bruce
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Richards reckons drag
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >[translational rod movement
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >pre-butt rotation] removes slack, Bill Gammel
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>thinks it removes sag, >I think it adds Kinetic
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Energy. It probably does all three. But I don't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>think increasing
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >stroke length is an essential
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >whereas widening the casting arc most certainly
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>is. I AGREE THAT,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >\"STROKE LENGTH\" DOESN'T COVER IT ALL. AS I
>LOOK >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>AT IT , TIP
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>TRAVEL IS >MOST IMPORTANT......A COMBINATION OF
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>STROKE LENGTH, ROD (CASTING) ARC, >AND ANY OTHER
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>TRANSLATIONAL MOVEMENTS IN THE DIRECTION OF THE
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CAST. (WE >MUST REMEMBER THAT BACK WHEN THESE WERE
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>WRITTEN, MANY WERE USING THE
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >TERM, \"STROKE LENGTH\" TO MEAN WHAT
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>WE >NOW CALL, \"TIP TRAVEL\".) PRE-BUTT ROTATION,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>\"PULL\", \"DRAG\" OR >ANY TRANSLATIONAL MOTION IN
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>THE DIRECTION OF THE CAST PROBABLY
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >_DOES_ REMOVE SLACK AND SAG AND ADDS KINETIC
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ENERGY.......ALL
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>THREE (AS >I SEE IT.)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >(6) is very interesting. Something I teach, is
>to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>say "stop harder". >What is someone
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >doing when they think "stop harder"? Hopefully
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>they're squeezing the >hand, which
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >results in rotating the butt at the end of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>stroke, which is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >"proper power application". I THINK YOU ARE
>RIGHT. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>FLOYD FRANKE
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>PUTS IT >THIS WAY WHEN HE TEACHES THIS :
>\"SQUEEZE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>TO A STOP\". HELPS A LOT WITH >ACCURACY
>CASTING, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>TOO.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >I'd like to say I knew the answer here, but I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>don't. The argument
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >for an abrupt
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >stop is that it gives a more efficient transfer
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of energy from rod
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >to line, but on a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >170 casting arc I reckon that most of that
>energy >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>has already been >transferred
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >before the stop. Where's the stop on a swoop or
>a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>thrust, for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >example?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >If it's at the end of thrust the rod's hit RSP,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>energy's been
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >transferred and you may as
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >well drop the rod. YES. THIS IS GROUND UPON
>WHICH >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>FEW DARE TO TROD >!.......WE RISK BEING
>CALLED >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>HERETICS. ON THE SO-CALLED, \"THRUST
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >CAST\" AS WELL AS THE, \"SWOOP\" IT DOES APPEAR
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>THAT YOU'VE
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ALREADY >GONE PAST RSP. HERE, THE TRUE STOP IS
>WHEN, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>\"YOU RUN OUT OF ARM\". OF >COURSE THE ROD IS
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>STRAIGHT AT THE END OF THE THRUST.....BUT THAT MAY
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >HAVE OCCURRED A SPLIT SECOND EARLIER. I'VE SEEN
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>LEFTY DEMO THIS AND >LITERALLY DROP THE ROD ON THE
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>GROUND AFTER THE THRUST. THE LOOP SHOOTS >OUT WITH
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>TREMENDOUS SPEED AND ITS DIRECTION IS UNCHANGED.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>BEST NOT TO >TEACH THAT THRUST WIND CAST EXCEPT TO
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ADVANCED CASTERS WHO HAVE ENOUGH
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >CONTROL TO AVOID ELBOW INJURY.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Sorry I know this is not very good teaching for
>a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>study group. Some >day we'll
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >know everything and then we'll try our best to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>forget it all.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Incidentally I find emphasising "power
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>application" as opposed to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >"stop" can have
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >a more positive effect. Just a different way of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>getting the same
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >stroke nailed. I HOPE WE NEVER DO KNOW
>EVERYTHING >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>! IT WOULD BE
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>LIKE >FINDING THE, \"NEVER-FAIL\" FLY. I DO SO
>LOVE >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>GETTING INTO SUPER >DETAIL....BUT I DON'T WANT
>OUR >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>GROUP TO LOSE SIGHT OF THE FOREST FOR >SAKE OF
>TOO >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>MANY TREES. > GORDY
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Paul
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >PS I can't believe Tip Travel has already been
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>invented; we'll have >to come
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >up with something different.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >PPS I shouldn't have eaten beans last night.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 7:13 PM
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Subject: Re: Actual demo of ESSENTIALS
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>Paul....
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>Interesting points.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>On 3.)....."Short cast: short stroke, Long
>cast: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>long stroke" is,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>as we both know, a gross oversimplification.
>For >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the long >>cast,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>we >>need a long distance travel for the rod tip.
>We >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>don't need it for the >>short cast. Of course,
>this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>is tip travel is produced by the >>combination
>of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>many things, including rod arc (casting arc),
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>stroke >>length (as defined by the distance moved
>by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the hand) and, with >>very long casts, the
>caster's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>body motion. Even a step forward >>during
>the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>delivery stroke adds to that tip travel.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>(Incidentally, the first reference in the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>casting literature I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>could find was in J.C. Mottram's book, FLY
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CASTING,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>originally >>published in 1921. So the term is a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>resurrection not a new
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>coining.)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>On 6.) One can have a whimpy stop (a mush) and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>still get the fly
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>out there on target......but is that the most
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>efficient way to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>do it >>?......I think not.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>I simply can't make anywhere near the distance
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>on my distance cast >>with a soft stop. Just can't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>do it !
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>You call attention to the concept of crisp
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>application of power.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>Now if we have that anywhere in the stroke
>except >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>juxtaposition to >>the stop, we have a spike of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>power.......high liklihood of a tailing >>loop.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>Having said that, I realize fully that there
>are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>many casts which
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>are done well with hardly a stop, or even no
>real >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>stop. These
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>include >>certain curve casts such as the
>corkscrew >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>cast, the helicopter cast, >>and other
>decelerating >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>curve casts....in fact,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>any >>purposely decelerated cast. It certainly
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>includes the, "no stop" of >>the back cast during
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>what has been called the, "European continuous
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>tension cast" as well as other elliptical casts
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>including the >>so-called, "Belgian cast".
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>As I happen to look at it, a crisp stop is an
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>essential for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>so-labelled, "straight line overhead
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>casting"......NOT ALL
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>CASTING, >>BY ANY MEANS. If we look at it that
>way, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>you are absolutely >>CORRECT.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>Gordy
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>From: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>Reply-To: "Paul Arden" <paul@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>To: "Gordon Hill" <hillshead@xxxxxxx>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>Subject: Re: Actual demo of ESSENTIALS
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 05:19:38 -0000
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>Hi Gordy,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>I've been thinking about the essentials listed
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>below and I don't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>agree that [6] is an essential.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>I think what's really happening when a caster
>is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>thinking about
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>making an abrupt stop
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>is that he's really making a crisp power
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>application [5]. There are >>quite a few
>"stopless" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>casting styles
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>including the TLT and Austrian style - which
>as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>you know is how
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>most Continental Europeans cast.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>I know that runs contrary to much of what we
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>teach but many
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>distance casters don't use an
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>abrupt stop either but integrate drift/swoop
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>into their stroke. I >>just sort of flop the rod
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>over
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>and hope.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>I used to think that the stop was the most
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>important thing in
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>flycasting, I now think it restricts
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>distance.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>I think [3] should be or include proper
>casting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>arc.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>I hope you're getting some good fishing.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>Cheers,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>Paul
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > Group...
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > Following a suggestion by Molly Semenik, I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>have one more >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >question on the 5 (or 6) ESSENTIALS.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > In your own words, describe what you would
>do >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to demonstrate
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >clearly to a group of fly casting students,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>each essential.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>You may >> >use a fly outfit or any other
>teaching >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>prop or tool.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > 1.) Straight Line Path of Rod Tip - I have
>a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>short (one foot)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >section of a rod tip complete with tip top
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>guide. It >> enables
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>me to >> >hold the short section up to eye level
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and while moving it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>back >>and >forth as per casting strokes, I can
>use >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the other hand to >>clearly >demonstrate the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>straight line path by accompanying the rod >>tip
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>with >the flat palm of my other hand.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > 2.) Eliminate Slack - When teaching, I
>always >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>stress this very
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >early in the lesson. I have always liked and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>used Lefty's >> way
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of >> >putting this. With the line laying out
>about >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>30' with a bit of >> >slack, he points to the
>fly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and leader and states: "Ain't nothing >> >gonna
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>happen until that fly starts to move." After
>stating >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that >> >fact, I demonstrate how much of
>the back >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>stroke is wasted pulling
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >out slack that was not removed. I also, to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>indicate the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>uselessness
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >of slack in casting and to interject a little
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>levity >>as a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>bit of an >ice breaker, use the analogy of a
>drunk >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>pulling a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>chain down the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >street, when asked by a very proper lady, why
>he >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>is >>pulling
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a chain, >he replies, "Lady, did you ever try
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>pushing one
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>of these things?"
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > 3.) Short Line - Short Stroke, Long Line -
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Long Stroke - I use
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >analogies here also. To indicate proper
>stroke >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>length, I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>pantomine >> >throwing a line-drive baseball,
>which >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>requires a short straight line >>
> >throw/stroke for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a close throw and a longer
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>straight >>stroke for a >longer ball. I also have
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the student watch the rod as >>I make longer
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >strokes while adding line.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > 4.) Pause - I like to use the term -Timely
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Pause - With >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >beginners I try to have them temporarily adapt
>to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>a 90% stance
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>and >watch their back cast straighten (almost
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>straighten). >>This
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>has >>a >dual-fold purpose, as it allows them to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>see the line trajectory >>and >often helps to keep
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>their back casts up where they belong. If >>the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >individual has trouble watching their back cast,
>I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>revert >>again to >one of Lefty's old methods. I
>ask >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>them where they are >>from, and I >instruct
>them to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>make a back cast while pausing long
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>enough to state
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >their name and where they are from. It works
>like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>a charm
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>on a 30' >cast.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > 5.) Proper Application of Power. - When
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>explaining power and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >how to apply it, I have started to use a
>term >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>that I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>believe >> >our
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>own >Gordy has coined, and that is "An
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>accelerated >>acceleration
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>to a >> >stop", I have never heard it explained
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>better. For this all >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >important step I also use hands on guidance
>with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>permission.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>There >are many analogies for this also, such
>as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>driving in >>low
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>gear >>then >shifting to second and finally high.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > 6.) Abrupt Stop - When trying to explain
>the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>importance of the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >stop, I allude to the elite distance
>caster's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>(Steve >> Rajeff)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>words, >> >when he was asked: What do the best
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>casters do that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>other's >>fail to >do? And he replied; "They stop
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the rod." As to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>demonstrating this, I >again like to, with
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>permission of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>course, use >>hands on. It is a >wonderful way to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>have the student actually feel >>the abruptness of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >the required stop. Here again there are many
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>visual >>aids we can >apply, throwing water at a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>wall off of a paint brush, >>slinging an
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >apple from a dowel rod and so on.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> > Since I have a plethora of beginners here
>in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the Catskills, I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >have printed out little cards (laminated)
>with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>essentials >> listed >and hand them out at the
>end >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>of a one day lesson. I
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>tell >> them to put >them in their wallet or
>purse >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and refer to them if >> necessary when >they
>are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>practicing, and then I always add; "You
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>do >>plan to >practice, don't you?"
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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> >>>>>>>>>>>
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> >>>>>>>>>
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> >>>> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
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> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
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