[GH] From Bruce Richards :
Hi guys,
I think we have a terminology issue... To me, drag is what happens before any rotation starts. To get 8-9 ft. of drag you have to be considering all hand translation from the very beginning of the cast to loop formation. But even if you consider translation through the entire cast, the motion is slow and short COMPARED TO THE DISTANCE MOVED AND SPEED OF THE ROD TIP which is accentuated by the fact it is at the end of a 9 ft. lever.
We have measured some speeds, but not specifically rod hand translation. We have measured line hand haul speed, which will be considerably faster than rod hand translation. Max haul speeds could possibly reach 8-10 m/sec, although we never measured any quite that high.
Rod tip speed on a max distance type cast could reach as high as 80 m/sec. If we assume that rod hand translation is, say, 5 m/sec it is obvious that it is not a major contributor to tip/line speed. Significant in a competitive situation, sure, any small contribution matters when another 2-3 ft. of distance is important. But for more normal casting/fishing situations, speed added from rod hand translation is insignificant. In my opinion, the benefit from reducing slack in the line is much more important (for distance casting too) as it allows the rod to work more effectively and the rod is where the real speed comes from.
Bruce
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[GH] Bruce,
Thanks!
Terminology does provide some glitches.
For example, I know you consider DRAG to be outside the casting stroke. In the event that it is prior to the start of the stroke, then it seems it must end before the casting arc (rotation) begins rather than at loop formation.
Of course, some translation usually continues almost all the way through most casts..... but I'd hesitate to call that drag once admixed with rotation as the main movement.
For those who see drag within the casting stroke I'm not sure when they would see it ending. Perhaps as rotation dominates .... or maybe it doesn't really "need" an end point.
Someday, we may all be in agreement with these terms and definitions.
Gordy
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[GH] Now Walter looks at it as a mathematician as he attempts to refine our thinking :
Gordy,
I think we (me, you and Bruce) are probably all in agreement. I think the numbers I've seen/heard are something
like 2 m/s possible with translation and 30 m/s possible with rotation when we look at the rod tip.
I think there is some bias in these numbers because the translation figures are measured with the assumption
that the rod is held vertically, or near vertically, and there are a few reasons why this makes it difficult to attain
peak translational hand speed. Is there enough difference to debate Bruce's statements? I really don't think so.
I expect that even with a more optimal hand/rod orientation that there is still close to an order of magnitude
difference between the two motions and an order of magnitude is what mathematicians like to call
"a significant difference".
Cheers!
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[GH] From Paul Arden :
Hi Gordy,
we have translation measured at 10m/s, but that's not the point. The point is if you put Drag outside of the CS by definition, then we don't start our roll cast until at some point later in the Stroke. That is a very strange situation to say to someone, "I bet you don't know when you start your cast; it's not when you think it is!"
For me Drag is a very useful teaching tool, to lump it outside the Casting Stroke with Creep for example, is a very odd thing to do.
Cheers, Paul
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[GH] Paul,
Let me guess that 10m/sec was achieved by an elite caster. (?????)
"To Measure is to know".
Lord Kelvin ( Sir William Thompson, 1824-1906.
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[GH] Pearls worth remembering, from Bob Stouffer :
Dr Gordy
The first time I used drag as an intentional element was learning a more effective roll cast in 2006. Liam Duffy demonstrated by showing me an index finger and thumb grip vertical casting technique with the remaining fingers loose, extended and not touching the grip. The cast was begun by a rotationless drag with the line pinched in the line hand. A strictly straight-line hand path without rotation, then rotating the butt to the desired stop. This movement was reinforced two years later by Jim Valle who taught me a very similar movement and rotation for improving my casting distance.
The discussion here has solidified my desire to continue to teach these mechanics as the student progresses. When seeking distance, I tell myself two things - "show the line which way you want it to go" (the drag) and "good things happen to those who wait" (the arc).
Bob Stouffer
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[GH] From Harry Boyd :
Not sure how to say this in engineering or physics correct terms, but does it not make sense that starting the accelerated movements of rotation from the already moving and accelerating translation movements allows one to move the rod faster? High jumpers always want a running start.
Harry
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[GH] Harry,
You've put it well without the physics !!
Gordy
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[GH] ALTERNATIVE POINTS OF VIEW :-
[GH] From Mike Heritage :
Hi Gordy,
I don't see any drag in either Paul"s or Ricks casts, I see slide. Drag has some affect on the line in the direction of the cast. Slide has no affect on the line, it is just the rod sliding along it as the rod hand and hauling hand come together. It allows for a dynamic repositioning of the arm, body and rod that flows fluidly into explosive late rotation.
Mike
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[GH] From Alejandro Vinuales :
Hi Gordy and group,
Interesting conversation. A couple of short comments:
In the .ppt file sent by Gordy, Rick Hartman doesn't add tension in the line during the "drag" movement. The tension in the line should be measured in the Rick's left hand. This hand remains immobile, and the line doesn't really move forward although Rick's body initial movement. I believe that, in the competition casting, the forward movement of the body is more related with the momentum transfer that with adding tension to the line.
As for the differences between "drag" and "creep", I don't believe that the premeditation of the movement can serve as differentiating element. For an external observer it is impossible to evaluate if the movement is deliberate or not. Let us suppose two videos that show two identical cast, in one the caster moves the rod consciously and in other it moves the rod unconsciously. In my opinion, if both movements are identical not it is reasonable to define them with different words.
Alejandro
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