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Walter & Group...
[GH] WOW ! Lots of good responses. Too many to share all of them. Check out each one, come to your own conclusions, then I'll tell you what actually happened in our next message on this topic.
Gordy
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[GH] From Jim Higgins:
Gordy
It sounds link the caster is trying to carry more line than his ability allows. Have him carry less line in the air and shoot more.
Thanks
Jim Higgins
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[GH] Jim,
We tried that. Cast improved greatly, but he didn't make the distance.
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[GH] From Rick Brown:
Gordy,
I think that the least obvious part of the problem could be the energy transfer from the front taper of the line to the leader. If the front taper of the line is too supple then it might not transfer enough energy to the leader to turn it over and if the butt section of the leader is too stiff the line might not be able to turn it over. This would be a ''last straw'' solution but worth checking if nothing else works.
A more obvious problem would be loss of line speed. A tight loop will travel faster through the air because it is less wind resistant than an open loop and it directs its energy more in the direction of the cast. I believe that the most probable cause of an open loop (at this level) would be beginning rotation too soon or making the stop a little too late with the rod tip pulling the rod leg down and away from the fly leg.
Not changing the trajectory from the 75' cast or not allowing a fraction more time for the back cast to unroll would also affect the distance.
best,
Rick
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[GH] From Ernie French :
Gordy,
I thought I’d jump in on this. There may be many human reasons for this failure to keep increasing distance but many times this failure can be attributed to the inability of the rod itself. At some point there is going to be a diminishing ability of the rod, and more specifically the rod tip, to be able to handle the forces involved in throwing longer and longer lengths of line.
Ernie French
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[GH] Ernie,
Good thought. Jim Valle made a point of this a while back when he recommended that an instructor check out the student's tackle when problems arise.
In this actual case, however, the candidate was using a 9' Loomis GLX 7 wt. matched with a WF7F Scientific Anglers Mastery, Expert Distance Taper line. (Should have been OK for this task).
Gordy
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[GH] Jim Chestnut puts all this together :
Hi Gordy,
From the clues you have given us:
1: Increasing loop diameter
2: Poor tracking on the backcast
3: Forward cast beginning a bit too soon
4: Ticking on the backcast when "pause" lengthened
Together these seem to indicate inadequate line speed on the backcast (as you also indicated I think). Since the line is ticking when the pause is lengthened, there is probably more sag in the rod leg between caster and the loop on the backcast than there should be. So the caster could well be hurrying the forward cast in an effort to prevent the ticking.
I would:
check the line tension/ straightness at the start of the backcast.
check for continued acceleration during the backcast rotation to the stop sequence.
check for a rapid haul "late" in the backcast.
check for forward drift after the forward false cast.
Assuming he is not doing these things. I would suggest to the caster that he watch his backcast and try to tighten up the backcast loop.
He could start with forward drift as the loop is unrolling on the forward false cast, proceeding to either drag or slide and into a "delayed" rotation and a "delayed" haul. By doing these, he will increase line speed into the forward cast, and narrow the loop, and cut down on line sag It will also enable a longer carry more which will load the TCX more easily and earlier for the forward cast cast with a shorter shoot required if he wishes.
I would suggest to the caster that he not go for a distance release off a marginal backcast.
Cheers,
Jim
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[GH] From Thomas Urbig :
Hi Gordy,
my initial thoughts would have been creep and an uncompletely unrolled loop upon the backcast. Your info that the loop opened up on the back cast indicates to me that the acceleration upon the backcast was not smooth and that the candidate did not make a crisp back-stop (which would lead to the opening).
Remedy could be to get the candidate to a better acceleration on the back cast and a good (potentially slightly earlier) stop. The earlier stop should lead to a higher backcast which is of course only good if we generate sufficient line speed on the back cast so that it really straightens.
On the forward cast there is probably not enough acceleration (I guess in that case starting to fast) and doing the final acceleration with incompletely straightened backcast/before the complete line is moving forward. Did you see any tails on the forward cast?
If according to your info the stop on the forward cast is ok then the casting arc is probably too wide (->opening of the forward loop)!?
Potential remedy: the candidate should try to use less energy in the rod hand and generate more through the line hand. Try to have the candidate cast the amount of line with slower and slower rod hand movements. 2nd I would try to increase the speed of the line hand at the end of the haul (Speed up and stop for both line and rod hand). Higher stop would alleviate the wide and inefficient loop on the forward cast.
My two cents. Regards
Thomas
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[GH] From Len Anderson:
I would like to see more line speed by increasing haul speed on the back cast and forward cast. Look for a tight loop on the back cast and loop unroll to leader before beginning forward cast. Watch line to see loop formation on both back and forward cast.
Len Anderson
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[GH] Thomas,
Yes. Except for the creep (which I didn't find), all of the above pertained.
Gordy
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[GH] From Doug Swift:
Hi Gordy
In reading over the last few messages I would be watching for (1) a more controlled power application with a longer casting stroke to adjust to a longer length of line that should have been carried or shot into the last back cast. (2). That the caster was watching the back cast to ensure good tracking, pause time and proper launch angle for the presentation cast. (3) A well timed haul with enough speed/power to increase tip speed to accommodate the extra distance desired. The six step method could be applied to these possible faults individually and in that order.
(P.S. I think launch angle or the 180 deg. relationship between the back cast and forward cast is an important element in any distance cast)
Doug swift
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[GH] From Liam Duffy:
Gordy,
Set your target, a foot further each lesson the student has what I call "examinitis" which I have, don't tell the student you have moved the target and "let him at it" relax it appears it all come from nerves the student has a "mental block" about a set distance for the exam so work him up to the distance WITHOUT TELLING HIM!! watch what happens I've used this technique on lots of pupils and it works!
Best Regards,
Liam Duffy
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[GH] From Bob Stouffer:
Dr Gordy
It is only ten feet more, but I will bet that his arc increased too much.
Bob Stouffer
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[GH] Yes, it did. Hank Wu speaks to this :
Hi Gordy,
based on the further information you gave,
I guess his main problem is off the SLP.
For my personal experience,
when we want to cast further, we usually swing the rod with a bigger arc.
And this big arc swing always cause the rod tip traveled in a convex path instead of the straight line path. And that of course dissipate the energy.
For me, the 75ft or 85ft cast is not a big difference, so I think the caster in fact no need to change his casting arc dramatically.
I will suggest him just do the translation motion a little bit longer. No need to use such a big swing motion. Try to keep the SLP then he won't waste the energy.
And about the tracking problem, for a right hand caster, it is very nature to swing your rod from your right side to your left side when your swing motion is very big. Just like you use a Japanese katana.
But when you do the fly casting with a right hand, most of time the tracking is on your right side. So if you swing your rod from your right side to your left side(no matter how far it is), you actually are off tracking. To fix this, I will suggest him to pick a target which is just aligned to the tracking(with a right-hand casting, the tracking is about 1~2ft off his right shoulder). And try to point his rod tip to the target when he does the presentation.
Hank
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Hank,
Yes. The casting arc must match the amount of line carried and the rod bend in order to have an (almost) straight line path of the rod tip.
Gordy
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[GH] From Don Pendleton:
Gordy,
I am going to guess the caster is hauling throughout the entire casting stroke on the nice 75'. My suggestion would be to work with him to delay rotation and delay haul.
I would teach delaying the haul by telling the caster to false cast making his stroke progressively shorter and shorter, trying to make the haul do the work. After a couple of reps of false casting this he will be out of breath and in pain. Now tell him to lengthen his stroke and make the haul late, long and fast. Try to keep from laughing while you do this to the student. I've done it, it works. Taught to me by Jim Laing.
Don
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[GH] From Gary Davison:
QUESTIONS :
1. Briefly describe one or more of the problems which you think may be going on here.
Could be poor timing based on the added line carry, which in turn caused slack in the system, which was amplified by power being applied to the cast too early. Which caused a reduction of arc needed to carry the cast to full extension. Arc reduction was not enough to cause tailing but enough to cause the collapse of the cast.
Then by adding more power by the caster to achieve the results desired thinking power would solve the situation. The results would just get worse. Tails would then appear!
2. Let us know your way of tackling the problem (or problems)
Wait on the cast to develop by waiting longer as more line is added to the system, apply the power evenly throughout the cast to the stop, while maintaining good communication (tension) with the line at all times throughout the cast to the stop, Provide good application of the haul as late as possible to enhance the cast in the direction desired.
(I would ask for the caster to apply good timing by maintaining good tension on the line to minimize slack in the cast. Ease up and smooth out the cast with evenly applied power with good stops, to achieve the results desired using a good late haul timed correctly to direct the cast. )
It comes down to Timing, Slack, Power, Arc to maintain SLP= Distance Fly Cast!
Gary
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[GH] From Tom Rueping:
Hi Gordy,
This sounds a little like a TIMING problem. I have noticed with some students, a tendency to not extend the pause as the length of line is extended. Not realizing this, the caster will apply more "oomph" and the whole casting stroke begins to fall apart.
As a solution, I suggest to the caster that he/she turn and watch the backcast while making the false casts at the length of line carried for the 70-75 foot cast ( the "comfort length") and extend the line for the final delivery on the final backcast. Extending the line on the forward cast immediately prior to the delivery cast, often results in a loss of control due to exceeding the "comfort length" leaving the caster to make a critical back cast with more line extended than he/she can carry. What you observe then is a hurried and usually over powered cast (A MESS). By extending the line beyond the "comfort length" on the back cast, and watching that cast, the caster can see the line straighten for an efficient forward cast.
Tom
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[GH] A generic "short answer" from Rene Hesse:
Hi Gordy,
Short answer because I'm on my lunch hour.
Watch the line and then with the 6 step process evaluate it with the
'variables' adjusted.
Stroke, timing, power and trajectory.
Long, wordy, extensive answers upon request.
Cheers,
Rene
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