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Walter & Group...
[GH] Interesting that while we have a few common threads, each respondent has a different slant on what may have happened. By reviewing these many messages, it gives us a look at the various faults which are to be avoided when when making the salt water quick cast.
I purposely included entries from some who have been studying these casts even though they have had little or no experience with them. This gives us an idea of how our some of our students might look at it along with questions which will emerge. Some of their own answers are surprisingly good because they are based on sensible theory with basis in experience with other casting problems.
"Digest" these, first. Then................
Tomorrow, I'll tell you what actually happened.
Gordy
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[GH] Doug Swift offers a plausible scenario :
Hello Gordy
I have no experience casting in salt water and I'm paying close attention to the feed back from the rest of the group.
Most of my thoughts on the answers to your questions have been covered. In response to question 3, I was thinking maybe the caster, being a experienced trout fisherman may have temporarily reverted to his "trout casting muscle memory" and made the back cast and forward cast in too much of a vertical plane with a small loop in an attempt to get better accuracy to the approaching fish. I'm guessing he was using a weighted fly as well which would be better presented with a more open loop to avoid fly/caster/rod contact.
Doug
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[GH] Doug,
Without giving away the final scenario, I can tell you that he was casting with a bit more vertical rod plane (casting plane) than ideal.
Gordy
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[GH] A new slant from Bob Stouffer :
Gordy - Starting to feel sorry for your dearth of answers.
One thing the "student" did correctly was to put the hook in His ear rather than Your ear.
Seems to me that if the wind is quartering and the boat is being pushed with the wind, the back and forward casts will not be in 180 degree sinc. If the target starts-out over your right shoulder, the movement of the boat changes it to being over your left.
With any quick-cast, there is line outside of the rod-tip stored in the line hand and the hook of the fly under the control of the thumb and fore-finger of the line hand. Line inside the rod-tip is stored either in the boat or stacked in the fingers of the rod hand.
Bob Stouffer
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[GH] Here are some good thoughts from one of our new members. From Jim Hund:
Dr. Hill:
I am a brand new CCI, whose has been finding out how much he doesn't know from your blog. It has been very informative and will make me a better caster and better teacher. Thanks.
With that said here are my very novice observations:
1. Two methods -
Key to quick cast is having 15-20 feet of line outside tip to adequately load rod this is needed to shoot line on first back cast so that 50' of line can be cast with 2 false cast. Under either method, fly if held between thumb and index finger with hook up and carrying a loop of line with middle finger One method is roll cast forward and use water haul to deepen the load. Second method is to make first cast with back cast. Under either method the caster must manage line and let go of fly when tension is placed on fly as a result of cast.
2. Which method used
Likely second method. Back cast was first casting stroke.
3. What caster did.
Couple of things. First, did not hold fly out to side of casting arm. Second, let the fly loose to soon (while there was still slack in the line outside tip).
4. Another Fault which can cause hook injury
With a weighted fly, poor timing which can result in fly dropping and hitting caster.
With a heavy fly and a lack of proper timing, the fly can drop on the back cast and hit the angler. While perhaps not a fault, the caster with a quick cast needs to remain cognizant of wind direction especially when wind is blowing into the casting arm.
5. Why experience important to keep this from happening
Why skiff operator would want experienced salt water angler
Excitement rises quickly and to a high level when a moving pod of fish are relatively close when first spotted. This is a situation where there will likely be only one shot at the fish. The excitement added to the speed needed to properly execute the cast tends to make the caster nervous. This results in failure to properly execute the cast, usually making the caster doing things to quickly. Facing this situation several times is needed to take the excitement factor out of the equation.
I would also add, that the level of excitement can get heightened, if the experienced angler does not immediately see the fish. Seeing fish on the flats, especially with a grassy bottom, is a skill that takes experience.
Quick cast is just that - quick. It has to happen fast usually when a pod of fish has presented quickly, are closing fast and where the first shot will be the only shot. These circumstances create a level of excitement which affects the caster and results in poor execution of quick cast. The caster needs to face this situation several times so caster can stay composed as opposed to being overcome with excitement.
Hope I am in ballpark with observations.
Jim Hund
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[GH] Lyth Hartz comes in with some valid points despite his admitted lack of long experience in the Salt :
QUESTIONS : (No single perfect answer to any of these 5 questions.)
1.) Describe at least 2 methods of making the SALTWATER QUICK CAST (SPEED CAST) from a skiff. I can think of two methods. Both start with enough line out of the rod tip to quickly load the rod. One method starts with making a roll cast to get the line in the air. Then using a double haul you make a back cast shooting line followed by a forward cast shooting line to the target. The other cast makes a back cast first (without the roll cast) followed by a forward cast shooting the line to the target. For a longer cast, you might use a second back cast in the casting sequence. Again using the double haul. In both cases you hold the fly in your hand and make the first cast “pull” the fly out of your hand helping to load the rod.
2.) Which METHOD do you think may have led to the hook-up injury ? If it was windy either casting method could result in the injury. You mentioned that the caster caught his clothing also, that might have been with the roll cast method. But again, if windy I think either could have contributed.
3.) What do you think the CASTER DID to make this injury likely ? If this caster was like me when I fished salt water, he might have had “buck fever”. It is very exciting to see these fish and know that you may not have long to make a decent cast to catch the fish. This is especially true if you have been fishing for awhile without seeing a fish. The other problem with this cast is its name – quick cast or speed cast. The name makes one think everything has to be done fast. The caster must wait until the back cast unrolls before coming forward or slack will be in the system and the cast will fail. Certainly the back cast and forward cast must be made with speed, but the pause still needs to be long enough. The slack could be enough to throw off the cast enough to hook an ear.
4.) Describe another simple FAULT which can make a hook injury likely to happen when making these saltwater quick casts. The excitement of this fishing situation could easily lend itself to poor tracking on the back cast using either method. This will get the entire cast out of alignment and could cause the right handed caster to hook his left ear.
5.) A number of very experienced Florida Keys saltwater skiff guides strongly discourage any but seasoned salt water fly anglers from attempting these casts when fishing. Why do you think this might be? Guides like to have their clients catch fish. This cast is somewhat difficult and may contribute to the angler reducing his/her catches for the day. Also, when the casts get out of alignment, the caster may hook himself or herself or possibly the guide or another angler. This can ruin a very nice day on the water. The last thing I would add is the wind factor is very prominent in salt water fishing conditions. Trout angling can usually find a way to deal with windy conditions by finding areas out of the wind. Not so easy on a flats skiff.
Thanks again for the opportunity to take your quiz.
Gordy
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[GH] Refreshing questions from Hank Wu :
Hi Gordy,
to be honest, I am totally not familiar to the salt water cast or speed cast.
So I want to ask a stupid question.
Should I always start the speed cast with my fly or line in my hand??
I reread Lefty's book as you mentioned above,
yes he did a awesome explanation and awesome photos,
but for me it seems that the speed cast he showed in his book can't cast very long(in his book he told the longer speed cast can cast about 60ft far).
The purpose to use the speed cast is trying to reduce the times of false cast, I think.
So if I want to minimize my false cast times, it seems that I have other choice.
Such like I may use the water surface tension to load the rod deeper when i start to pick up the line.
then I can shoot more line on my back and shoot on my forward again then present the fly,
with only one backcast.
So what is the speed cast's advantage.
out off this topic,
but still hope you can clarify my confusion.
Cheers
Hank
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[GH] Hank, No stupid questions here !! I welcome your concerns. This is one way in which we all learn.
Here is my take:
1. There is a variation on the saltwater quick cast theme which starts the cast with the fly off to the side in the water.
2. This does provide additional rod load which can minimize the number of false casts and increase distance.
3. Lefty has honed these casts to perfection. He is capable of a long distance presentation using his "Longer Speed Cast with extra back cast" technique , I assure you. Of course, one disadvantage is that you do have that extra back cast .... but that is partly offset by the fact that it is used to present to a fish farther from the angler/skiff where that extra back cast may be ok. *
4. You are correct that one of the main purposes of the quick casts is to reduce the number of false casts. It is this feature which goes a long way to make it QUICK. The main reason for these casts is to present as rapidly as possible to fish which are approaching and closer than about 40' from the angler, where TIME is the most important issue.
5. There are other choices which are very effective. Most of the time I use these alternatives rather than the quick casts as described in the literature. We'll discuss these later. Water tension is involved in some of them.
6. The speed cast's advantage appears when circumstances such as surface film, weeds, shallows with grass or coral outcroppings, the use of electric motors, sinking lines, weighted flies, etc. make the use of water hauls inadvisable.
Gordy
* CASTING with LEFTY KREH, by Lefty Kreh, 2008, pp. 381-384
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[GH] Steve smith sends some valid answers despite the fact that he has not fished in salt water:
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As I have never fished salt water in a skiff this is all new to me.But here we go(heading to Florida in April to try this out though)
QUESTIONS : (No single perfect answer to any of these 5 questions.)
1.) Describe at least 2 methods of making the SALTWATER QUICK CAST (SPEED CAST) from a skiff.
1)Fly in line hand,line in approx. 2 loops in line hand plus extra line coiled on deck (approx. 30' past rod tip)
start with line behind you in roll cast position.Make a forward roll cast with rod hand having trapped the line and let the loading of the rod pull the fly from your line hand.Do not drop the fly into the water as this will cause slack in the line.As the line is shooting forward grab the line with your line hand from you rod hand .As you start your back cast you can start to haul.After the stop give back the line(double haul) and start your forward cast then do you second haul and shoot your line to the target.
2)Lefty's method.Fly in rod hand,strip 10' of line .Lower rod tip point at the fish,start back cast and let rod pull fly from rod hand.Get your rod well behind you so it will give you a long forward cast.On the forward cast haul as you accelerate the rod and shoot the line through your hand(forming a circle with your thumb and forefinger).
2.) Which METHOD do you think may have led to the hook-up injury ?
Probably the second one ,because if your first rod move is forward there is a good chance that you have removed the slack before you start the backcast.But it could happen on either cast if you let the fly go rather than let it be pulled out
3.) What do you think the CASTER DID to make this injury likely ?I think he let go of the fly too early and created slack in the line and lost control of his cast
4.) Describe another simple FAULT which can make a hook injury likely to happen when making these saltwater quick casts.
Not having the line hand out in front of you.
5.) A number of very experienced Florida Keys saltwater skiff guides strongly discourage any but seasoned salt water fly anglers from attempting these casts when fishing. Why do you think this might be?
They are tired of being hooked in the ear!!!
Steve Smith
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[GH] Despite the likelihood that Bob Rumpf has not had a great deal of experience fishing from flats skiffs in the salt (he's an expert trout fisherman), he comes in with some very good answers:
Hi Gordy & group,
As regards the quick cast questions, I will reply to the copied questions. Due to Jon being with the individual as mentioned, I will not even touch on a wind direction scenario, knowing Jon obviously would not have permitted someone on his skiff to cast with the wind blowing into his casting side. Incidentally, thank heaven for small favors and barbless hooks.
1.) Describe at least 2 methods of making the SALTWATER QUICK CAST (SPEED CAST) from a skiff. - Holding the fly safely behind the point and barb, then before making a stroke, extending the hand holding the fly underneath and to the outside of the casting arm. - or - Allowing both the line outside the rod tip and the fly to dangle off the side of the boat and begin with a roll cast with rod held out in an off vertical position necessary to keep the fly away from yourself and also prevent it from tracking dangerously over other occupants on the boat.
2.) Which METHOD do you think may have led to the hook-up injury ? - Could have been either depending on the type stroke made and how the rod was positioned. A good guess would be that he began the cast with a back stroke and due to being fish anxious, neglected to hold the fly in the proper position (extended out) and drug it into his ear.
3.) What do you think the CASTER DID to make this injury likely ? - Became a bit too anxious and forgot how he was instructed to hold the fly.
4.) Describe another simple FAULT which can make a hook injury likely to happen when making these saltwater quick casts. - If beginning with a back cast, you better have that fly turned properly to the rear, or hooking yourself becomes almost a sure thing. - Casting with the line passing too close to your person, the result of poor rod angle, can also cause problems.
5.) A number of very experienced Florida Keys saltwater skiff guides strongly discourage any but seasoned salt water fly anglers from attempting these casts when fishing. Why do you think this might be? - Pass experience with individual who thought they were capable but proved otherwise. - Concern for safety both for the individual and for the sake of their liability insurance increasing with claims.
I just taught an individual the quick cast prior to his trip to Belize. He learned well and reported he was provided a guide just to hold his retrieved line between casts. Oddly, sometimes when teaching the quick cast, after stressing speed, I have to slow the student down because they are not allowing the line to straighten on the last stroke.
Regards,
Bob Rumpf
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