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Walter & Group...
[GH] From Bob Rumpf:
Hi Gordy & group,
Actually those of us who do not get to fish salt as often as we would like to, relish (or should) this information when it comes from the people who live it. How better to learn than from the experts. I know most of the trout in our Catskill rivers by their first name, but there's much more to be an MCI then being a specialist on one or even several species. Frankly I am truly enjoying this topic. We get a virtual parade of world class anglers who visit the Catskills, and I am often asked to teach the quick cast and also work with people preparing for tarpon trips. I very much enjoy the diversion these lessons provide.
Regards,
Bob Rumpf
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[GH] Bob,
The very fact that so many of our members are jumping in with more information attests to the fact that we do have interest in this material..... even some of our trout fishers are helping.
Gordy
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[GH] From Craig Buckbee. (I added a * book/page reference) :
Gordy.
"I wonder if others can come up with fresh water scenarios where these techniques are used. (??)"
Absolutely.... I use it frequently while trout fishing the bigger water of the Catskills.... It's de rigueur !
There is very little if any weed or water debris so a good sized resting D-loop is almost always manageable.
I may choice to drop the fly first so as to make Roll Cast pick-up or hold the fly (keeping it dry) until the line's
pull asks for it.
Depending which side of the river I am on and the wind's direction I choose a back, forward, or off shoulder roll out.
While already out in the river waiting for a fish to pop back up, perhaps from resting it after a flubbed cast (!!) or for the wind to subside:
- standing in position.
- loops in order.
- line outside tip, down river.
- fly in hand.
While getting ready to wade out TO a fish:
- watching the water, before entering... spy good fish out in mid-river.
- wade out a bit, below, not near fish, make clearing cast to a distance I think I can make work given the circumstances.
- gather up my loops in order (see Joan's literature). *
- with loops and fly in hand wade into position.
- time presentation cast to fish's activity.
Craig
* Joan Wulff's FLY CASTING TECHNIQUES, by Joan Wulff, 1987, pp. 117-120.
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[GH] Great information from Jim Valle in answer to Gary Meyer's questions... and a lot more ! -
Gordy, Gary and Group,
Line Management, Coiling, Looping, and Tangles. (and Stripping Basket issues too!)
From the Two Hand perspective (Fresh or Salt)
Coiling… same as Joan Wulff describes in her video and books,,, river loop (some in the river ) around pinky, next loop little shorter around ring finger and so on. Works great for short to medium distance spey casts
Looping … excess line is stripped in and allowed to fall to the water…. When the caster has stripped in sufficient line to make the next cast there will be a very large amount of line laying on the water from the reel out to a half-way point and then back to the stripping guide … Caster simply picks that loop of line up in the middle basically dividing the excess line into quarters. (see Simon Gawesworth video) This does tangle less in my opinion because the line is straighter and not twisted from the coiling.
A few things to understand about what you have seen with spey casters… generally speaking wading deep is (unless unavoidable) actually counterproductive with spey. Every 1’ of additional water depth shortens the cast by 10’ (this is not an absolute but a rule of thumb) it certainly makes for a tougher cast. Getting in deeper is going to lend itself to coiling simply the caster has less free altitude to work with and therefore needs to keep more line out of the surface tension. His cast is too close to the water. You can also coil or loop using both hands to hold some line.
Now the next piece of information, which you can’t appreciate unless you spey cast well enough to actually feel the power (most new spey casters will only feel this once in a while when all of a sudden this tremendous cast happens) but once you get there you will see that there is enough power generated to pull tangle knots right through your rod guides…. Makes me laugh out loud every time it happens to me. The point is that the spey systems have so much pulling power they can remove more line from the surface tension and the breaks in the surface tension that you provide by coiling or looping are enough for the system to launch that cast.
And here is the key! … you don’t cast harder or faster you actually MUST CAST SLOWER to allow the momentum (see Al Buhr) to build. That’s the power that pulls line off the surface or sends knots through your guides. Long rods simply don’t like fast!
Which brings me to tangles … especially for stripping baskets, single or two hand 1. cast the entire working line out of the stripping basket each cast otherwise reel in what you aren’t using or due to conditions can’t cast. Second rule for tangles … cast slower with a full deep rod load … line that zips out to the basket will tangle every time. And lastly watch the line that comes from your reel. If this ‘dead line” comes in contact with the outgoing moving line from the stripping basket it will cause a beautiful bird’s nest.
I will add that since I started spey casting (I’m not talking about overhead casting) in the surf for Strip
ers etc. I rarely use a stripping basket anymore. Too much trouble. I use a Scandinavian set up on my spey rod ( mid length head and a fairly long leader) when I strip in (which you typically need to do to impart some action to the fly anyway) I just let the line fall into the surf … when I am ready to cast again I simply grab the big single loop in the middle and make my cast. Good bit of line laying around and thrashing in the surf but again the power pulls it all out (most of the time, anyway!)
Hope that helps,
Jim V
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[GH] Doug Swift comes in with another use for the quick cast (Speed cast) when bass fishing in Northern Ontario, Canada :
HI Gordy
I have often used the quick cast for smallmouth bass fishing here in Ontario. In the Northern Ontario shield lakes that smallmouth inhabit they often go on an early morning feeding frenzy when they chase surface feeding minnows. They bass appear in groups as they break the water surface and if you can get a very fast cast away into the middle of the boil you will get a hook up every time. They will be gone and re- appear 40-50 feet away in a matter of seconds, so the quick cast is the only way to get a fly on target in time. This behaviour usually takes place in open water that can be 70-80 deep, but relative to some shoreline structure where the bass hang out in their off peak feeding time.
If anyone is interested, I have a full article about this (BAIT BUSTING BRONZEBACKS) on my website at http://www.swiftflycastinginstruction.com.
Doug
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[GH] From Bill Kiester :
Gordy,
Sunday mornings at the trout lake in Vermont the fish are cleaning up spents.* They are lazing along just under the surface in no particular pattern. I'm standing in a rowboat kicking it along every so often with an electric motor. Because I am standing I have to be 55 to 60 feet away from the fish to be out of their cone of sight. And the fish are often much further away. Because you don't know where the next fish is coming up there is a tradeoff between the length of line you can drag behind you and the ability to make a drastic angle change to the rise. For me this translates to 30 feet of fly line in the water and 45 feet of fly line in the bottom of the boat. This puts a premium on big angle changes and lengthening line with a maximum of two false cast, one is better, and you have to hit a target up to 80 feet away. The fish are very easily spooked by anything near them in the air or surface disturbances. I count myself lucky if I get 2 or 3 fish in an hour. It's not bone fishing but it is a lot of fun.
One way to manage the line is use a traditional long belly line. You just swing and pickup and never change the length of line being cast. That's traditional but shorter belly lines are being used in more and more situations and they do require shoot large amounts of line. The line is not coiled it is looped. I was faced with this situation the first time I went spey fishing. I was using a skagit line with a 32 foot head 15 foot sink tip and 10 foot leader. I knew the theory but I had no practical experience. The method I used was the one right out of the books. Make four big strips catch the line on the pinky of my striping hand, three big strips catch the line on my ring finger, two big strip and one little strip and catch the line on my middle finger.
At first it was really awkward and I had to think about every move. Of course on the first day I only need one or two strips. But over the nine days of fishing it became more and more automatic and I need more and more loops. Then because of the nature of spey casting I was forced to change hands and had to learn line management all over with my right instead of my left hand. Toward the end of the trip I even played with four graduated loops. Simon Gawesworth recommend two equal sized loops. It is all a matter of using loops that are small enough so that the portion of the loop dragging in the water can be lifted out of the water and pull into cast.
Bill Keister
* Dead or "spent" insects:
Gordy,
Yes they are the dead flies lying on the water with their wings spread eagled on the water. In this case they are fairly small and entirely invisible from the boat.
Bill
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[GH] From Ally Gowans :
Hi Gordy,
In three weeks I will be fishing at Joulter Cays. I haven’t told Moira about the guides with the lester (Scottish name for this ancient device used for salmon poaching - trident spear) for the sharks!
Holding lots of loops of line is usual for long distance shooting head casting. There is a chapter on my Spey Casting DVD that deals solely with the technique for that. I have written about this and will try to find some pictures to illustrate how the line is retrieved and held. It’s much easier to hold loops with a double handed rod. *
Best regards,
Ally Gowans
* Spey Casting Made Easy, DVD Video, by Ally Gowans; Letsflyfish.com
http://www.letsflyfish.com/spey_casting_dvd.htm (See attachment.)
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Ally,
Sure like to see those pictures. You are quite an artist !
The DVD you gave me worked fine on my machine.
I'M EXCITED ABOUT YOUR UP COMING BAHAMAS TRIP !!!!!
Just so you know: The permit I've caught in the Joulters have all been either close to the main channel, or on the N.E. edges of the big flats. These flats border the TONGUE OF THE OCEAN which drops down to 2000' depth. The edges just beyond the white sand flats, there, slope out toward the deeper water. Lots of coral heads, sea fans, etc. there which permit like. Sometimes they come right up onto the flats .... but, unlike bones, usually don't go way up unless the tide is unusually high. In general, they prefer flats not too far from deep water.
Years ago, I anchored my boat in the deep Joulters channel for several days at a time. We used it as a "mother ship" and used small skiffs to take us to wade areas. We learned that there are special areas where the bonefish were very large whereas the average bonefish in the Bahamas are medium in size. In those years, there were no native guides there.
A few natives fished for those big bones for food. They had no equipment other than hand lines. They would place a hook baited with a piece of conch on the flat, then back up as they let out line. As the school of bones approached, they crouched way down. When a bone took the bait, they fought the fish on the hand line. They had no ice ... so after catching 3 -4 fish,, they would hoist the sail on their little smack boat and sail back to Lowe Sound on the North end of Andros on the high tide. (The white sand flats come out of water at low tide.)
Best,
Gordy
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Attachment:
Spey DVD by Ally Gowans.pdf
Description: Adobe PDF document