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Walter & Group..
[GH] Just a few last comments on Tailing loops before closing statements on this topic.
From Lasse Karlsson :
Hi Gordy
In response to Troy's disagreement, since I was the one who said it:
" Not exactly clear who said this, but I disagree with this statement:
' Just as with the arial mends, if we make the move right at loop formation the mend travels all the way out, if we make the tail right at the beginning of the stroke, it has to travel all the way out before it can manifest itself truly. '
The reason is that mends are manipulation of the bottom leg of the loop, while tails are a flaw in how the top leg unrolls in relation to the lower leg. Of course, mends occur in response to actions after loop formation, while tails are a product of specific movements prior to loop formation. There is no reason to expect them to behave in similar fashion…
I understand Feynman’s quote, but I like Einstein’s better:
'If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts.' "
Actually there are all the reasons to expect them to behave in the same fashion. The Mend is a wave made in the rod leg of the loop, and the point in time it is made will help determine where it will end up. The Tail is a wave made in the fly leg of the loop, and the point in time it was made will help determine where it will end up.
Both waves relies on tension in the line to travel, as well as direction. Aitor's clips show this quite well.
If the facts fit, why change them ;-))))
Cheers
Lasse
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[GH] Lasse,
In my opinion, you and Aitor have presented the most convincing argument .
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[GH] From Bernd Ziesche :
Hello Gordy,
great video of Aitor (thanks Aitor)!
I think to create a wind knot due to a tailing loop the line has to cross itself!?
The cast in the video shows a tendency to tail. But in the end of the stroke Alejandro drops the rod deep enough to avoid a true tailing showing up and I think the line + leader landed without any knot in it :).
So I would call this a (significant) buckle in the fly leg or a tendency to tail. And yes it shows a typical casting fault "finishing the haul too early". Often this ends up in a true tailing loop with having a knot in the leader.
Is it really necessary to find one short definition for a tailing loop which fits with every single cast someone may perform somewhere out in our big big world? If so I've a feeling we never gonna find one! :)
Chico Fernandez once said: "The line goes wherever the tip goes!" And I use this term in almost all of my lessons. It helps students to understand what they are doing.
But how does that term work in Aitor's video here - if we really take it to detail? ;)
In my opinion the best definition is always simple but to find it is everything but not simple. And it never should be about black or white. Most of our terms are not 100% perfect in all situations that one may be in!
Just like the SLP - it's a theoretical ideal that none of us ever achieves. But it works fine for teaching!
Here is another question to all examiners: Would Alejandro pass the task "show a tailing loop" with that cast? Or would you additional want the line to cross itself?
Greets
Bernd
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>From Ally Gowans :
Hi Gordy
I wonder . . .
Should we call a tangle something other than a tangle? It seems to me that in some of the examples all that’s happening is that the line is being accelerated prematurely during the stroke, then tension close to the rod is lost due to acceleration ceasing. The momentum of the majority of the line which is traveling faster than portion of line close to the rod tip causes slackness and an apparent “tail” or is it just a tangle? Sure this action causes the rod tip to dip a bit but is it the dip or the irregular acceleration imparted to the line that makes the tail/tangle? Maybe someone would like to show us what happens with a ridged rod that does not dip concavely?
A “classic” tailing loop from a concave rod tip path causes the oncoming line to intersect the rod leg due to its momentum. How much does the location of the line’s momentum prior to and during the casting stroke influence the probability of tailing?
Questions for budding masters – how would you differentiate between a tailing loop and a good roll or Single Spey cast? Can you demonstrate a tailing loop with a roll cast if asked? How would you do that? What commonly causes what appears to be a tailing loop when in fact it’s not whilst Single Spey casting?
Best wishes,
Ally Gowans
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[GH] Things to ponder from Walter Simberski.
Hi Gordy,
I've been thinking about the leader/fly/line/rod combo that might invariably cause a tail.
Let's start with the leader/fly/line combo first and look at extreme conditions:
What if I were to cast an extremely light long line such as 100 feet of sewing thread? I think
this might have a tendency to form a poor loop and end up tumbling but I wouldn't necessarily
consider that a tailing loop. My observation is that when people try to carry more line than
they can carry they tend to make very big loops or sometimes the develop a rhythm for a few
false casts where they start their reverse cast long before the first cast has had a chance to
unroll and they end up maintaining two loops for a few false casts before everything falls apart
but I don't consider that a tailing loop either.
What if the line were far to heavy to carry with the rod? Again - I don't see how this would cause
a tailing loop. Perhaps a sagging fly leg but, again, not a tail.
What if I try to carry a lot of overhang? I've watched some incredible casters over the years
carry a lot of overhang and no tailing loops there.
Personally, I don't see how a combination of fly/leader/line could invariably cause tailing loops.
Some combos are definitely harder to cast but my observation is that, with practice, you can
learn to cast almost any line set up without making significant changes to your casting stroke.
In general this involves just paying close attention to the fundamentals which is what we should
be doing anyway.
When it comes to the rod, however, I can envisage a rod that would be difficult to cast without
tailing if one didn't make significant changes to their casting stroke. This rod would essentially
have no taper except for one single hinge point between the rod butt and the mid point of the rod.
With the exception of the hinge point the rod would be very stiff. The hinge point, on the other hand,
would be very flexible to the point where the rod would kick back at the hinge point with all but the
most gentle casting stroke. This would create an initial tip path where the tip dropped several feet
vertically at the start of the stroke. I think the tip path would then continue more or less straight
until we stop the rod butt. At this point the tip section would spring up several feet vertically resulting
in the dreaded concave path of the rod tip. In order to avoid a concave path the caster would have
to rotate the rod butt very significantly beyond his normal stop and might have to use a mushy or
prolonged stop in order to get the rod tip to spring forward in a sort of straight path rather than up
during the stop.
So far this is just a tough experiment but I think I can think of a way to construct just such a rod
with a reasonable amount of time and effort...
Cheers!
Walter
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[GH] Walter, I think we could spend untold hours on these experiments and in the end accomplish naught !
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[GH] I have received in the past 48 hours a virtual avalanche of messages on our tailing loop topic.... far too many to share.
Most of them repeat what has already been said by others using various explanations and terms.
While a few of the issues remain controversial .... such as what we will end up recognizing as a tailing loop, and others have been "explained" by theory, I have ended up being drawn in the direction of the hard evidence which has been presented.
There are few topics we've chosen over the past years which defy final solutions or consensus. This appears to be one of them.
Some of our messages have been vitriolic, some almost accusative. For reasons most of you will understand, I have not shared those. Three of you have decided to discontinue further discussion on this topic.
Rather than get into a conflagration over what may be considered conjecture and what is hard evidence, I think it best that we leave this to our own private decisions, wind up our tailing loop discussions, and go to our next topic.
Gordy
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