Comments on TAILS

Walter & Group...

[GH] I expected a lot of feed back on my tailing loop message and have not been disappointed. This is how we learn as we gain input from many .... not a single opinion.

>From Phil Gay :

Gordy,

Good stuff!

Over the years I have developed the following technique for correcting tailing loops. I tell my students to get the tip of the rod through the 12:00 o'clock position or an extension of 12:00 o'clock if casting off the vertical before they apply power. I emphasize the tip not the butt as the tip will always be lagging. I demo it with a bent rod to show them how far ahead the butt will be before the tip reaches the 12:00 o'clock line.

This works well when the cause is improper power application related which I think is the cause of most tailing loops.

Phil

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[GH] Thanks, Phil. I'll try that and give it a place in my "bag of tricks."

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[GH] Constructive criticism of my tailing loop message from Guy Manning :

I disagree with some of what you have down on the subject of tailing loops. You state:

Causes : The basic cause of most (though not all) tailing loops lies in the formation of a concave path of the rod tip.

Then go on to say:

Ten Caster movements which can lead to the formation of tailing loops :

1. Erratic or inappropriate application of power.

I feel you have the cause and effect backwards. I feel that the most basic cause is an inappropriate application of power. This creates a concave path of the rod tip. There are numerous ways the concave path can be created at the caster, and some of these are what you have listed. In other words a concave path is not the root cause but what the caster did to create it. A concise way to describe what the body did would be inappropriate application of power. Specifics would be a list of what casters do to create them with their body.

Guy Manning

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[GH] Guy.

Upon reviewing this, I have to agree with you that I have placed the cart before the horse on the titles !

You are correct that the basic cause is always what the caster did in the first place.

Better to have stated it something like this :

Causes : There are at least ten caster movements which can which are the root cause of tailing loops.

Effect : Most (thought not all) of these movements result in a concave path of the rod tip.

I also agree that by far the most common causal caster movement is inappropriate application of power.

There are exceptions which I noted .... such as the tail which forms when the caster makes a back cast and then a forward cast with less than 180 degrees of trajectory between them as well as the purposeful shoving of the rod tip up directly into the line path as well as the failure to dip the rod tip at all at the end of the cast.

One which has been contested, is the tail which occurs when the caster uses too small a casting arc for the amount of line carried. Bruce Richards has stated that this can occur even if the caster does not use inappropriate power. As I think about that one, it seems to me that while this can lead the caster to use a spike of power resulting in a concave rod tip path, it is hard for me to see how the mis-match between the reduced casting arc and the rod bend can actually occur without this faulty power application.

I DO appreciate your critique.

Ill make the change on the master copy.

Gordy

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[GH] From Bob Stouffer :

Thank you, Gordy, for the "quick-fixes" portion of the message. I would think of this type of fix as a "short-term" rather than a "lasting" fix. Take the "lengthen your stroke" fix; what is generally needed is more arc.

Bob Stouffer

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[GH] Bob,

Of course, it IS sometimes the increased casting arc which is needed. The reason I put it the way I did, is that I've witnessed time and time again, guides who use this quick fix saying to the client, " Make a longer stroke ".

Gordy

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[GH] From Bernd Ziesche :

Hello Gordy,great work around the tailing loop, many thanks for sharing all this! Description : - A "closed loop" formed as the fly leg of the loop crosses over the rod leg.

I don't really like this description very much. Attached is a picture that fits well with these description but doesn't show what I call anything else than a nice loop. Chico Fernandez btw is using this loop style in order to drop the fly very softly next to the bones down the keys. That s what I see in his videotapes ;).

Here is another definition that I prefer:

There are many ways how we can achieve a concave path of the rod tip during the stroke. This puts a wave or buckle in the fly-leg of the loop. The tailing will happen when the fly-leg now is dipping down and crossing the rod-leg of the loop.

What do you think?

All the best

Bernd

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[GH] Bernd,

I include your attachment.

I must agree that this certainly does look like a "closed loop" and is one example which tells us that perhaps that term is not the best one to serve as a synonym for a tailing loop even though it has been embedded in the fly casting lexicon.

I have watched Chico do this. In the video, you see that the fly leg does not cross over the rod leg; rather it starts low and then rises as the loop unfurls. This is why Chico does not get a collision or a knot.

Gordy

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[GH] From Mac Brown :

Gordy,

Welcome back! Enjoyed the piece on tails and had a few points to consider. First off, I think the 282 members to be like a small army to cut through the misconceptions of casting today on a global sale. It is for this reason I feel it important to look at the use of tails much deeper than just a fault.

You listed : - A casting fault resulting in loss of distance, accuracy and presentation.

- Often yielding a collision between the loop legs.

- Sometimes forming a tangle or knot. (Oft called a "wind knot" )--

I think there are many examples on the trout stream where it is at times one of the only ways to pull off a presentation which is drag free. It never collides once the caster uses a rotation of the wrist toward completion of the casting stroke.

If it never collides, than there is no knot. I bring this up only because if master instructors always looking at these tails as problematic, than it is destiny to never use them in fishing casts. All tails have the potential to be negative or positive casts (straight too!). I will include a quick sketch on 2 on the stream examples which may help folks see the power of using tails on the water.

I would say that using them for fishing casts has been one of the biggest breakthroughs on the stream for me in several decades. Funny how the water demands that often times. The timing of learning to control these types of casts on the water are best learned on the grass to build confidence in the stroke.

Like all things these tails become problematic only when the caster throws a tail by accident. When that occurs the things listed below apply quite well for those situations. Thanks, and sorry to play the devils advocate once again.

Have a great week!

Mac

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[GH] Mac ....

By playing the devil's advocate, you help us see things in greater detail. This gives us all an understanding in greater depth.

I thought about that when I described the tail as a fault !

In the past, I recall your describing the use of controlled tails on the stream.

As I think you will remember, quite a while ago I called attention to the use of a controlled out of plane tail for placing a fly beneath mangrove overhang.

I noted that this was described by Jason Borger as a technique used by Michael Maloney to do just that. I quote:-

" You can actually use tailing loops. Friend and renowned instructor Michael Maloney spent some time talking with me one day about employing purposefully created and accurately aimed tails to swing a heavy fly up under mangrove cover on the flats. Definitely a Maloney technique." *

* Jason Borger's NATURE OF FLY CASTING...., p. 76

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