Pick up & Lay down. Some different answers

Walter & Group...

In going through the answer sheets, I looked for some with different answers which made good sense.....  most with reasons given. 

I placedMark Milkovich's answer sheet in an attachment to save space.    G.

 

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 Here is the one from Mark Surtees.  My comments in his text in italics .  I was particularly interested in his answers to questions 2.), 3.) and 4.)     G.   :-

1.)    Briefly descibe this maneuver in your own words.

 

Two stroke cast. Back and forward without false casting. The line starting on the water and ending on the water.

 

2.)    Do you use this technique when teaching new casters ?

 

I used to,  generally I don?t any more.  

 

3.)    Why do you think it is important enough to use for new casters ?

 

I don?t think it is important enough. I would only introduce it as an objective late in a beginner session if I was confident that the caster had sufficient rod and line control to comfortably complete the cast.

No "right" or "wrong" answers to these two questions.  Simply info on your using it or not for teaching.    G.

 

4.)    If you do NOT use it, tell us your reason (s).

 

a.       It tends to encourage a rigid, fixed, closed stance. Beginners and intermediate casters are often tense in a lesson, I want them to relax and get used to a variety of stances for fishing.

b.      Introduced too early, when it goes belly up, which it almost invariably does, the student is likely to become demoralized. I want the student to feel that they can achieve something during the lesson, not that they can?t.          This is one reason why Joan Wulff starts her new casters with a simple on-the-water roll cast rather than the pick up and lay down.  It eliminates the back cast and is so easily performed that it yields instant success.     G.

 

 

c.       It generates faults from the off, I want to teach by pre-empting faults not generating them with a formal cast so I can then fix them afterwards, this is backwards instructing IMHO.      Good points !    G.

d.      The caster almost invariably cannot see what is happening behind. I would like a new caster to see what is happening to the line all the time not just half the time.       This is the reason some instructors teach ground casting with the rod horizontal... so the student can see both forward and back casts starting in slow motion, then increasing speed once mastered.... finally performed in the air.     G.

 

5.)    Would you ever use it when teaching intermediate or advance casting students ?  List examples, if so.

 

Yes I would teach it for accuracy.       I don't see how that would work for teaching accuracy.... you would be returning the fly to its original position.   G.

 

6.)    What do you see as the most common fault when students do the pick-up and lay down ?

 

Failure to eliminate slack on the pick up.    Most agreed with this.     G.

 

7.)    How do you correct this ?

 

With intermediates I ask for or show them a roll cast. For beginners I ask them to pull in a little line until its straight, pull it straight for them, or ask them to step back until I can?t see them anymore then I do a runner with frustration? J

 I can see how pulling the line straight would help ... but I don't follow as to how the roll cast would help eliminate slack on the pick up.  Perhaps I'm missing something.   G.

8.)    What do you find as the second most common fault ?

 

Massive windscreen wiper casting arc.     Yes. 

9.)    How do you correct this one ?

 

Encourage a positive lift and ask for the back cast to be aimed high into the sky    That is one way of doing it.  When the caster aims at a real or imaginary object behind him in the sky, he's less likely to cast back and down.    G.

 

10.)Can you think of other faults likely to appear ?  List them.

 

Excessive wrist break

No stops

Pause too long

Pause too short

Curved hand path

High back cast, high forward cast for a lovely tail

All faults we see      G.

 

11.)  Where do you prefer your student's rod tip to be at the start of the pick-up and lay down maneuver ?

 

On the water.

 

11.)Why ?

 

Gives maximum opportunity to eliminate slack in the lift and, If necessary, affords maximum stroke length.    Yes.

 

12.)Where in the fly casting literature can you find a detailed description of the pick-up & lay down cast ?

 

Jason Borger. Nature of Fly casting. There are many others.   Jason states that the Overhead Cast is , "sometimes called the "Pick-up and Lay-down cast......" .  He then goes into detail and includes several of the faults we've considered, though if he describes the pickup done with the rod tip too high above the water, I missed it.  He breaks it down into a back cast module , an overhead forward cast module and a pause module .  All this describes a basic overhead cast .... but the text didn't leave me with the concept of a pick up and lay down specific teaching maneuver.*

* JASON BORGER'S NATURE OF FLY CASTING by Jason Borger, pp. 59-69.       G.

 

13.)Ally Gowans has stated that the caster must get the line ORGANIZED before making a pickup.  What do you think he means by this ?

 

Get it straight.      You bet.   l

 

14.)Lefty Kreh writes that there is something the caster must do prior to making the actual pickup.  What is that ?

 

Just get the fly moving a wee bit.

 

15.)Given the choice, would you prefer to teach this maneuver to your students on grass, in a gymnasium (with no wind) or on water ?

 

Water.

 

16.)Why ?

 

Water tension on the pick up prevents the line sliding slightly towards the caster as it would on grass or a Gym floor. This prevents the line from momentarily sagging during the lift and thus cuts slack.   

 

17.)You are teaching this cast with a 10 mile per hour wind.  What do you feel is the best way to position you student with respect to this breeze ?

 

Breeze blowing onto the non-casting shoulder.

 

18.)Describe the ideal line plane (trajectory / launch angle) for this task.

 

Can?t imagine that there is a specifically prescribed angle but generally it will be somewhere between 45 and 60 degrees up and back.

 Right .... no specific angle.   You've given a good general outline.   G.

19.)Why ?

 

Natural low to high hand path pulling to an effective stop position. Helps preserve the 180 rule.  

 

 

Gordy

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Answers from Doug Swift :

1.)  Briefly descibe this maneuver in your own words.

An initial back cast followed by a forward cast that presents or lays down the fly.      

2.)  Do you use this technique when teaching new casters ?

Yes

3.)  Why do you think it is important enough to use for new casters ?

All the "essentials" are included in this cast

4.)  If you do NOT use it, tell us your reason (s).

 

5.)  Would you ever use it when teaching intermediate or advance casting students ?  List examples, if so.

Yes.  -To help diagnose and  find corrections for a casting fault that the student or instructor has identified.  Tracking and timing faults (for me) seem to be easier to identify with a single pick up and lay down cast.    

          - 

6.)  What do you see as the most common fault when students do the pick-up and lay down ?

Not eliminating slack line prior to the pick up.  

7.)  How do you correct this ?

Explain why and how slack line has an effect on the cast , and demonstrate how to eliminate slack line from the  system.      

8.)  What do you find as the second most common fault ?

Improper application of power through the pick up and lay down strokes.

 

9.)  How do you correct this one ?

-Verbal and visual explanation of proper power application.

-If possible, a water based pick up and lay down cast to let the student "feel" the proper power application within the casting stroke

-"Hands on" student/instructor  instruction (with permission) 

10.) Can you think of other faults likely to appear ?  List them.

-Timing--Tracking--stroke length

11.)  Where do you prefer your student's rod tip to be at the start of the pick-up and lay down maneuver ?

Touching the surface  of the start point.

12.)  Why ?

To eliminate slack line at the beginning of the cast that would compromise stroke length.   

 

13.)  Where in the fly casting literature can you find a detailed description of the pick-up & lay down cast ?

George Roberts book "Master the Cast" pages 41-63 seems to be very comprehensive.  

 

14.)  Ally Gowans has stated that the caster must get the line ORGANIZED before making a pickup.  What do you think he means by this ?

I haven't seen Ally,s description of this but I think he would mean-- No slack between rod tip and fly and -  Rod tip on the ground with fly line in a position out from it that will ensure a straight line pick up and lay down cast with the back cast and forward cast 180 degrees from each other.         

15.) Lefty Kreh writes that there is something the caster must do prior to making the actual pickup.  What is that ?

All the slack has to be removed from the line

16.)  Given the choice, would you prefer to teach this maneuver to your students on grass, in a gymnasium (with no wind) or on water ?

Water

17.)  Why ?

Much easier for the student to feel the proper power application and see the rod load with a water based pick up and lay down cast.    

18.)  You are teaching this cast with a 10 mile per hour wind.  What do you feel is the best way to position you student with respect to this breeze ?

So the wind is blowing on to the casters line hand side.

19.)  Describe the ideal line plane (trajectory / launch angle) for this task.

It would depend on the length of line being picked up  

20.)  Why ?

To maintain the front and back cast 180 deg. from each other.

 

Gordy

 

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A few different answers by Gary Davison.  Note answers to questions # 13.) and 17.) .   My comments in italics.   G. :

 

1.)  Briefly describe this maneuver in your own words.

 

Short Answer:  Basis fly cast used as a standard or main building block for the implementation of casting essentials.

 

Long Answer:  The Pick-Up is the pulling of the line off the surface of water, grass or hard surface gym floor, auditorium, or parking lots in some cases depending on your venue and space available up into a back cast straight behind the caster.  The Lay Down is then the forward cast making the line extend in front of the caster in a straight line and then down to the surface of water, grass or hard surface area. 

Note: As stated this casting maneuver is the standard we use for the simple fly cast and is use as the building block for good casting fundamentals which incorporate the 5 essentials of the fly cast.  Once these essentials are implemented by the student into the Pick- up & Lay down cast correctly, then casting variables can be introduced with better comprehension and execution by the casting student. 

 

2.)  Do you use this technique when teaching new casters ?  Yes

 

3.)  Why do you think it is important enough to use for new casters ? As stated above it builds basic fundamentals which incorporate the 5 essentials for fly casting.

 

4.)  If you do NOT use it, tell us your reason (s). I am looking forward to the answers on this question.

Only answer I could think of would be start the student with the Roll Cast but this does not cover the Pause portion of the essentials.  Only teaching half of the cast meaning the forward cast.

 

5.)  Would you ever use it when teaching intermediate or advance casting students ?  List examples, if so.

Yes

Timing issues

Drift

Creep

Rod tip path

Stop

Tracking

Flashing of the reel.

Note: Any problem by an advance student will not be as obvious as the intermediate, but lets face it we all have hick ups in the get along some times that may take anothers keen eye to pick up.

 

6.)  What do you see as the most common fault when students do the pick-up and lay down ?

Too much wrist and casting stroke for the cast being made (30' of line out the tip )(convex path).

 

7.)  How do you correct this ?

1.) In some cases have the caster change grip by put their index finger on top of the grip.

2.) Ask them to pretend the wrist is part of the forearm and keep them firmly together on the cast with out breaking the wrist.

3.) Stop the rod hand at ear level or just in front of the face pointing the index finger straight up to the sky.

4.) Demo the cast implementing all the above so they can see where and how this takes place in the cast.

 

8.)  What do you find as the second most common fault ?

No Stops

 

9.)  How do you correct this one ?

1.) Show them what a loop is.

2.) Explain how important the stop is for loop formation.

3.) Demo the stop and where it needs to take place in the cast.

 

10.) Can you think of other faults likely to appear ?  List them.

1,) Slack in the line or in the casting stroke. (Starting the rod tip in a high position rather than near the surface of the ground or water.  Having a lot of line bunched up on the ground before making the cast).

2.) Pause timing off.  Not waiting long enough for the line to full extend or waiting too long and letting it hit the ground.

3.) Turning the hand outward on the back cast inducing poor tracking.

4.) Creep

5.) Too much power application!

 

11.)  Where do you prefer your student's rod tip to be at the start of the pick-up and lay down maneuver ?

Close to the ground or water.

 

12.)  Why ?

Reduces the slack in the cast.  If you start you cast with the rod tip high in the air, you have lost 1/3 or more of you casting stroke.

 

13.)  Where in the fly casting literature can you find a detailed description of the pick-up & lay down cast ?

The Essentials of Fly Casting for the Federation of Fly Fishers by Bill & Jay Gammel page 13,14,15.

 

Interesting, that on p. 13, it is recommended that this first be learned on a recently mowed field.  They reason that ...."You have to be more precise when casting on water, therefore, a practice field is the best place to learn."    G.

 

14.)  Ally Gowans has stated that the caster must get the line ORGANIZED before making a pickup.  What do you think he means by this ?

Making sure there is no slack in the line before making the cast.  

 

15.) Lefty Kreh writes that there is something the caster must do prior to making the actual pickup.  What is that ?

Move the fly!

 

16.)  Given the choice, would you prefer to teach this maneuver to your students on grass, in a gymnasium (with no wind) or on water ?

Water 

 

17.)  Why ?

Water preferred being as this is the true medium for this sport. 

Also Pick up off water requires a staging of the line before making the back cast to reduce water disturbance.  Takes practice to do this correctly.  Grass does not provide this tension on the line so the student can feel this basic fundamental staging of the line for a good pick up off the water.

 

18.)  You are teaching this cast with a 10 mile per hour wind.  What do you feel is the best way to position you student with respect to this breeze ? 

Always have the rod hand down wind.

If location would not allow this I would angle the caster to were they back cast was at an angle in to the wind with the rod hand on down wind side.  Quartering from the casters back left side if right handed.

 

19.)  Describe the ideal line plane (trajectory / launch angle) for this task.

Pick up to a 45 degree angle off the ground and in a continuous movement make the back cast up and back behind you.

 

20.)  Why ?

This should keep the line up off the ground behind the caster,  plus promote good straight line path of the rod tip for good loop formation.

 

 

Gary

 

 

 

Gordy