Quiz followup

Walter & Group....

Comments from Craig Buckbee.  My notes in his text in blue italics    G. :

gordy,

some thoughts on the quiz:

 

9.) the presentation cast needs to be the same  as the prior measuring false casts....  changing the location of front stop, lowering it and pushing it forward, may lengthen the line allowed to land. in other words, your last cast was not a hovered cast. it was a shot cast.

 

9.)  This CCI candidate is having trouble getting the fly close enough to a close target (20').  He does fine with the 30' and 45' targets, but he keeps overcasting the close target.  His loops are good and his application of power appropriate.  Tracking is fine.

     a. What is the most likely problem ?  Trajectory is off.

I think we are talking about the same thing, ie. making the back cast high (high trajectory or launch angle) and the forward cast aimed at or just above the target with a low trajectory so that the line plane of the back cast and the forward cast are 180 degrees with respect to one another.  

Whether to aim the forward cast directly to the target or just above it depends on the decision to either hover the fly and then let it drop or to drill it right into the target.  I'd suggest the former if no wind and the latter if windy.   G.

 

12.) caveat to the reach: false casting long and then pulling back (rearwards mend), correcting, may be undesirable when dealing with skittish, visually sensitive fish. 

 

Gary Davison's answer:

 

12.)  You have helped the candidate in 11.) so that now she can get a nice straight layout on her reach mend.  However, as she makes the mend to either side, the fly pulls way back from the target (target representing a feeding lane).

     a. Now what is her problem ?  Not slipping line. Or not compensating with enough line if not slipping line. 

 

     b.  How do you advise her ?  Have enough line off the reel to allow the slipping line through the rod where target area is achieved.  Same if not slipping line.

Craig ... you are correct.  The method of making the reach so that the fly is pulled back to the desired position is usually not a good idea for the reason you cited.  Much better to slip line as the reach move is made.   G.

 

 

13.) coupla' things:  

 

- to Jim's answer that a wide loop is more wind resistant and less efficient, you added that it is also a form of slack. to that i ask, not always, no? what about a fast wide loop? while still more air resistant than a fast tight loop it has plenty of tension, no?

Correct.  If the wide loop is energized so that there is good tension maintained, then is does not result in slack.  An example is the dynamic D-loop of a well performed Spey cast.  Same with the so called, "European continuous tension cast."

- casting in tightly twisted planes (elongated figure-eight) for a pair of casts, side-arm backcast + vertical forwardcast, while not the most efficient way to get distance (read: get extreme distance) does not in itself make slack. use of good timing and drift can get a twisted tip to send line pretty far,  pretty straight. 

 

I agree.  At the Conclave at Loveland, Peter Hayes of Australia demonstrated some astounding distance casts made with highly energized wide back cast loops with continued tension.  He never could have made those distances if he'd been dealing with slack .  (I understand that Peter was one time distance champian of AU.)

 

In fly casting, some things which work well seem to fly in the face of "conventional wisdon" ...... 'til you look at the physics involved.  Then they make sense.

 

MORE THAN ONE WAY TO SKIN A CAT !!!

 

Gordy

 

craig

 

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I usually present more than one good set of answers to any quiz because it allows us to see correct answers using different word pictures.   A good way to learn.

 

One more set of answers from Mark Milkovitch.  (The second attachment didn't go through on the original message.)  My comments in red italics.    G.

 

QUIZ

Here is something which came up recently (Re. questions 1.) through 5.)

I've been coaching some CCI candidates and have run across some problems that have recurred.  These are described in questions 7.) through 14.) .

1.)  Your "intermediate"student has done pretty well.  She has good loop control and timing while casting in the 40 - 50 foot range using her own outfit.  This is a medium action 9' rod with a WF9F line.

  She now starts to cast with the same line and leader, but with an 8' medium action rod.  She develops a series of tailing loops.

Give two likely causes for this.

        a. The caster must work harder to generate the same line speed with the shorter rod, it is likely that the force in being applied abruptly and/or excessively.   Yes.  The cadence must change (faster for the shorter rod.)  G.

        b. Unless the caster widened her arc, the stroke length is too short for a SLP.  Agree.  the casting stroke must increase as well as the length of the stroke.     G.

 2.) What is your suggested correction for fault a.? Shorten the amount of line cast by 10?, down to about 30?.  Then, have the student begin making efficient casts with minimal force.  The caster will work her way back from 30? to the 40?+ range lengthening the casts one foot at a time until she can do a series of 10 casts at each new length with good loops (see Bill Gammel Loop Winter 2000).  

I like that solution, because it teaches the student to adjust the timing and the casting arc and stroke length when casting different lengths of line.   G.

3.)  Your correction for fault b.? Shorten the casts as above and have the student do a series of loop control casts beginning with wide loops and narrowing them to consistent narrow loops first at 30? of line cast.  The process is repeated at 1? increments until the desired casting length is reached with efficient loops.   Good.   G.

4.)  She exhibits BOTH fault a. and fault b. with each cast.  How do you handle that problem? The correction for ?fault b? coupled with the stipulation ?all casts with minimal power? would handle both at once.   That is exactly what happened.  G.

5.)  After practicing for about 3 weeks with the shorter rod, she then goes back to the longer one.  Now her loops are big and she can't make the distance she had made with the shorter rod.

Why?

Her muscle memory is attuned to the wider arc required for the shorter rod.   Right.  We may have taught her t how to adjust while using different line lengths with the short rod.....  but not how to go back again to the long rod.   G.

 

6.) Another student casts with good tracking.  There is practically no change of rod plane (casting plane) between the back cast and the forward cast.  He makes very high trajectory back casts and follows with at attempt to make high trajectory forward casts as well. He has a stroke length and rod arc which are fine for the length of the line carried and he is using smooth constant acceleration to a stop with excellent application of power.  His timing is very good.  Tailing loops result.

Why? The forward and backward casting planes are separated by less than the ideal 180⁰.   Yes.  That yeilds a concavity between the back cast and the forward cast.  Interesting that this usually won't yeld a tail if the rod plane is changed between the two casts.  G.

7.) You are helping a CCI candidate prepare for his exam.  He is using a fast action 7 wt. Sage TCR fly rod. His line is a WF 7F SA Expert Distance Line.  The leader is 8' in length and tapered.   He does just fine with most of his tasks and easily makes the required distance cast.

When he gets to the roll cast tasks, he has a perfect set-up but then has trouble making tight loops which are below head level.

a. What is his problem? The short amount of fly line beyond the rod tip does not provide enough inertial resistance to adequately load the rod unless more force is applied during the cast.        True.   Rather than "blaming" the short line, however, I'd think that the main problem was lack of sufficient rod load because the caster wasn't able to put enough energy into the cast to bend it .  That did two things:  1. Formed a wide loop due to a convex rod tip path.      2.  Kept the line high so the loop was above head level.

One "fly in the ointment" was the rod.  It isn't easy for the caster to achieve enough bend with that very stiff tipped rod.  Failure to do that resulted in all the things discussed above, plus the lack of a straight line rod tip path with mis match between rod arc and rod bend.   G.

 b. How do you advise him?  Apply greater force to the rod and squat slightly if needed to lower the loop level.  Good advice.  I also had him use my rod with a more forgiving action.   G.

8.)  Another CCI candidate can't quite make the 75' required distance cast.  He is using lots of energy and has fairly tight loops on both back cast and forward cast.  The leader and end of the fly line crumple into a poor layout with the fly behind the leader connection.

      a. What is the most likely reason for his problem?  Providing that there is sufficient energy and the loops are tight enough, the problem could e a low forward trajectory.   Sometimes that is the problem.  The crumpled layout could also have been due to insufficient application of power.   In this case, however, the caster was using too much power on the forward cast and so didn't have smooth constant acceleration to a stop.  G.

      b. Tell us your advice to him. Lower the rear trajectory and raise the forward trajectory to see if that isn?t the problem.  That would have helped solve the problem if your diagnosis was as you stated in a.   In this case, I had him use less power with the rod hand and make a sharper haul well timed with the power application to the rod.   Worked well.   G.

9.)  This CCI candidate is having trouble getting the fly close enough to a close target (20').  He does fine with the 30' and 45' targets, but he keeps over casting the close target.  His loops are good and his application of power appropriate.  Tracking is fine.

     a. What is the most likely problem? Trajectory too high in front     Correct.    G.

      b. How do you advise him? Tilt the entire cast so it is lower in front and higher in the rear.   Yes.    G.

 10.)  Still another candidate has a problem with accuracy casting.  She does well getting close to each target with good form and nice loops when casting over her primary casting shoulder.  When doing this over the "opposite" shoulder, she gets the fly to the 20' and 30' targets, but does poorly on the 45' target; either not making the distance and/or deviating to either side of it by an unacceptably wide margin.

a.     What is her most likely problem? Inconsistency in the casting stroke which becomes increasingly apparent as the length of the cast increases.   Yes.  Insufficient rod arc and stroke length.  (So happened, she was casting cross body, so she simply couldn't get the rod tip back far enough.)   G

     b. How do you advise her? Shorten the casts to the point where accuracy is assured and incrementally build up to the longer casts developing consistent muscle memory at each different distance along the way.    That does make sense..... but we needed to change her cross-body style of casting to one which would provide sufficient casting arc and stroke length.  By having her cast overhead instead of cross body, she could get that rod tip way back over the opposite shoulder.  That did the trick after a bit of practice.  G.

 11.)  Now we have a candidate who is trying to make a good reach mend.  She can't get the fly and line to land with a straight path between the rod tip and the fly.  She is right handed and there is always a layout with a curve, line belly to the right.

      a. What is the likely reason for this? She is sweeping the rod tip to the side in an arc after the stop.   Yes.   G.

      b. How can you help her? Cast together with her hand on the grip and mine above the grip, controlling the rod, to illustrate the correct motion kinesthetically.   That would have worked just fine.  I actually demonstrated the correct move after explaining it to her.  As soon as I had done that she did it well so I didn't really have to go into the hands-on scenario.    G.

 12.) You have helped the candidate in 11.) so that now she can get a nice straight layout on her reach mend.  However, as she makes the mend to either side, the fly pulls way back from the target (target representing a feeding lane).

a.     Now what is her problem? The line is not slipping through the guides as needed for the mend. The line hand may not be releasing he line soon enough or the mend itself may be made too abruptly.    She didn't slip line.  That was the problem, here.   G.

     b. How do you advise her? Release the line immediately at the stop and make the mend more slowly and smoothly.  OK, but she also needed to slip line as the sweep was made.   G.

 13. )  This candidate needs lots of help, especially with his distance cast.  He can't make the required distance and is off to one side with the layout.  As I watched his back cast, it looked pretty good from the side, but when I got way behind him, I saw that what had looked like a fairly tight loop when viewed from the side, when seen from behind was really a very wide loop from side to side.

     a. What is his likely casting arm position as he did that? Arm canted to the casting side rather than vertical.  That was the case, but it was compounded with the arm held high.  He swung the hand back and around so that the rod tip described a horizontal arc and the loop unfurled around way behind him.  This was a form of slack which had to be taken up as the forward stroke was begun thus diminishing his effective stroke length.  ( The rod didn't start to load (bend) until the rod tip was past vertical on the forward stroke.)

IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT HE COULD HAVE DONE VERY WELL USING A STYLE WITH THE ELBOW LOW AND THE ROD IN AN OFF VERTICAL OR EVEN AN OFF HORIZONTAL POSITION IF HE HADN'T SWUNG THE HAND AND ROD AROUND AND HAD BROUGHT THE ROD TIP STRAIGHT BACK FINISHING WITH THE ROD TIP TRAVELING BACK AND UP A BIT.    G.

 

      b. Why did this result in his inability to reach the target distance? No matter what plane it is in, a wide loop is an inefficient loop for achieving distance.    True.   (Except, as Craig pointed out, with a highly energised D-loop with continued tension.)   G.

      c. How would you handle this situation? The primary adjustment and the one to be made first is that the rod tip path must be straightened to narrow the wide loop. For other parts of the exam, there are requirements for casts in a vertical plane (rod within 15⁰ of vertical).  It would be possible to combine the two adjustments in a single exercise.   Yes .... that is one solution.   In this case, what worked was to have him get his arm down into a more efficient position after showing him what was happening by allowing his back cast to fall.  He could see the layout curving way around behind him on the ground.   They, while allowing him to chose his own prefered rod plane (off vertical), I taught him to WATCH HIS BACK CAST as he purposely aimed it at a background target chosen as 180 degrees from the forward target.  He was able to make a tighter loop that way with no curving around behind.   That was enough to have him reach his distance.     G.

14.) Our last CCI candidate also has trouble with the accuracy tasks.  He's an older chap who uses his rather good fishing style.... Forward elbow, off vertical rod plane, slightly open stance.  His loops are good as is his smooth application of power.

He gets the distance to each target very well. No wind is blowing.  His fly lands way out to one side or other of the 20' and 30' targets but he gets it very close to the 45' target each time.

     c.)  Why do you think this is happening? The 45? cast is probably one he makes frequently and the stance/style lends itself to easily making the longer cast.  True.  He also had no concept of the accuracy triangle and hadn't thought to increases his right to left accuracy by using a vertical rod plane and square to the target stance.   G.

      d.)  You corrected his problem very well in short order.  How did you do that? Closed the stance and made the rod vertical with the hand closer to the body for easier targeting.  Yes, combined with tip casting and proper trajectory, that is a good way to be deadly accurate when casting to close targets.    G.