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  • RE: Casting Equations



    Title: Message
    Agree !
     
    G.
    -----Original Message-----
    From: Walter Simbirski [mailto:simbirsw@xxxxxxx]
    Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 12:05 PM
    To: Ssadik1@xxxxxxx; Gordy Hill
    Subject: Re: Casting Equations

    Server, Gordy,
     
    We have a 3 way email conversation going on here. I think Gordy had a great suggestion with the idea
    of a supplementary paper. I/we just want to make sure you (Server) get proper credit for things and I don't
    want to do anything that will make your technical paper seem anticlimatic. On the other hand I know you
    have a lot of additional information as well so that shouldn't be an issue.
     
    I am currently busy for the next couple of days but then I have a few days available. With everybody's
    permission I could draft the supplementary paper during that time with the view that the 3 of us would
    be co-authors of that paper.
     
    Server - you've told me about your graduate student, did you want to include him in this work?
     
    I also mentioned in a previous email about Jason Borger's and Grunde Lovoll's work. Do we want to contact
    Jason and get his thoughts about this?
     
    Cheers
     
    Walter
    ----- Original Message -----
    Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 8:50 AM
    Subject: Re: Casting Equations

    In a message dated 4/14/2009 10:05:32 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, simbirsw@xxxxxxx writes:
     
    Walter,
     
    I just read and responded to Gordy's more recent E-mail because I'm going through recent E-mails in a backwards timeline.  That message will explain the delay.  I don't//won't feel bad about you explaining things.  For myself, since I am very informed on these matters, I feel your phrasing in the message is excellent and will eventually borrow from it.  Go ahead and jump in because you are exactly right in the information below and it is, in my mind, hard to stand by with inaccurate descriptions and explanations being employed in teaching. I feel bad about not being able to find the time to write.  By the way, I agree completely with your ideas on how students benefit from instruction in spite of the instruction not being accurate.  The body is a marvelous feedback control system, especially for the more athletically gifted individuals.  The eyes know when things are improved and the body acknowledges the improvement.
     
    I understand your desire to explain and I say go ahead and do it.
     
    Server 
     
     
     
    Server,
     
    Any progress on your paper?
     
    I don't want to be a pain but the more I think about it the more I realize that a great deal of casting
    dogma is based on the erroneous concept that you must stop the rod or else energy stored in the rod
    will be lost. I've seen/heard a lot of discussion that tries to reinforce this concept and it impedes our
    understanding of other areas of casting mechanics.
     
    I remember taking a class that Jason Borger gave at a conclave a few years ago. As you probably
    know Jason allows his rod to unload and then follows through very smoothly to where the rod is nearly
    horizontal. A beginner trying to see where Jason has "stopped" his rod during his stroke is left very
    confused. Jason's explanation was that advanced casters are able to stop the rod so that it unloads
    and then carry on into drift or lay back so quickly and smoothly that the untrained eye is unable to see
    the stop but that it was clearly visible to a high speed camera.
     
    I realize now that Jason's stroke (and that of many other advanced casters) consists of accelerating to peak
    speed and rod load and then the "stop" really means "stop accelerating" at which time the rod unloads even
    though the caster's hand never stops until much later (often when the rod has reached horizontal). A beginner
    or intermediate caster trying to emulate the stroke can't understand why when they stop the rod in an
    almost horizontal position they just get a large inefficient loop and the wrong trajectory. Unfortunately, what I
    see is that the instructor then takes one of two approaches. If they are what I would call a "Sexylooper" they
    tell the student about the stopless cast along with a lot of bad theory to explain it but the truth is that the
    gut busting acceleration these guys use just means they have an almost slp over an extreme casting arc.
    If the instructor is more of a traditionalist they get the student to narrow their casting arc forcing them to
    a complete stop and then drift. The student will either develop a style with a distinct stop followed by drift
    which will probably result in shock waves in the line and shoulder injuries as they strive for greater distance
    or they will unconsciously reach a point where they stop accelerating rather than dead stopping the rod
    as it unloads and then continue smoothly to drift.
     
    I think a lot of casters instinctively understand what is happening and it shows in their instruction. Bruce
    Richards, for example, gets the student to use less and less effort to cast the same distance. Instinctively
    I think this gets the student to develop a smooth stroke in which the rod unload happens naturally and
    the caster can then follow through with a nice effortless drift. The Sexyloops guys keep talking about the
    stopless cast which is partly correct but then they try to minimize the importance of rod unloading and
    have started to develop all kinds of wierd theories about loop formation.
     
    What it all boils down to is that I feel it's important that this discussion gets out the greater fly casting
    community. I also want to make sure you get credit for bringing this out so I've personally been holding
    back from some discussions that might lead to discussions about the stop. 
     
    So, again, if there is anything I can do to help, please let me know.
     
    Thanks
     
    Walter  
     
     
    ----- Original Message -----
    Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 1:43 PM
    Subject: Re: Casting Equations

    In a message dated 4/3/2009 12:53:48 P.M. Mountain Daylight Time, simbirsw@xxxxxxx writes:
     
     
    Walter,
     
    I haven't had any opportunity to work with my notes - put them into coherent language and such.  But I hope to get on that soon.  I hope you don't mind me using the phraseology in your message below because it captures the essence of what I was trying to say.  Always helpful to have someone's statement of points that are trying to be articulated.
     
    We have been visiting our daughter for several weeks and still haven't put things back together around our own home. 
     
    Best regards- Server
    ,
     
    Eagerly awaiting your paper here. Hope it's going well.
     
    The idea that there is nothing that the caster can do nothing to prevent the rod from
    unloading should make for some interesting conversation.
     
    I really don't know why I didn't see that before since the only thing that is going to stop
    the rod from unloading is continued acceleration and since there are physical limits to how long a
    person can continue to apply acceleration the rod is going to unload and there is no way to prevent
    it. The only things we can do at that point is to control the path of the rod tip and maintain a firm grip.
     
    Cheers
     
    Walter
     


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