A student or examiner might ask for a definition
of a roll cast. This is not as easy as it might seem.
1. Define roll cast.
Short Answer: Forward cast made without making a traditional back cast.
Long
Answer: For single handed cast it
should be a cast where the line is staged correctly beside and behind the caster
to allow a good D loop formation. In most cases the line is stopped before
starting the cast. Some will begin the cast while the line is moving once
enough D loop has been acquired to make the cast. The cast should be made
with the loop unrolling above the water. Upon completion of the
cast the line should be suspended in the air and float to the water
for the desired presentation.
2. Must a roll cast be made with a "dead/static" line
?
Short Answer:
No
Long Answer: If you
are a beginner then yes most of the time this will allow the caster to take
their time in making the cast. As they become more advanced they can time
the cast correctly as they pull line into position to make the cast. As
the advance caster adds more power to the D loop area of the cast, timing and
rod tip path on staging the line will be very
important.
3. Does the roll cast have a back cast ?
Short Answer: This
will depend on your definition of a Back Cast.
Long Answer: If you
consider any line stage behind the caster as a back cast then the answer is
Yes. If you define a back cast in the traditional sense, as an unrolling
loop behind the caster then the answer could be No. This is
subjective. In my opinion I lean more to the yes answer on this subject,
mainly because the power that can be applied to the D loop could be
considered a back cast in my opinion.
4. Does a roll cast roll out on the water ?
Short Answer: It can
but that is not the norm.
Long Answer: Beginners do this a lot due to the inability to make tight loops
and using a convex path of the rod tip and dropping the rod tip at the end of
the cast laying the line on the water. Advance casters can make it happen
if it suits the fishing conditions. Normally when proper form is being
administered the loop should travel above the water to full extension.
5. Is the "distance" roll really a roll cast
?
Short Answer: Yes
6. Are the delivery moves of spey casts roll casts ?
Short Answer: YES:
(Definition of delivery is needed in order to provide
an answer.)
Long Answer: Spey Casts have been defined as Dynamic Roll Casts. Meaning
adding dynamic's, or power to the D loop formation allowing more arialization of
the line. Also Dynamic in that it is a very good change of direction
cast. If the line is anchored in the water to perform the cast, then
it is classified as a roll cast. So the answer to your question
is Yes it is a roll cast.
(Note: Exception would be in some situations
where some casters have administered an anchor on the overhead back
cast into the water behind them to increase rod load for distance
casting. This would not be a roll cast.) This is an extreme
example, but wanted to touch on this practice being as some may bring up the
subject.
Delivery moves to me would be the forward cast
after D Loop formation. The basic casting essentials still need to be
followed for a good cast. SLP, Stroke, & (Power) Pause,
Slack.
I use the words (Staging the Line) for the
Rod movements to control the line in order to create the power D or V
loop & placement of the anchor in the water on a Spey Cast.
Thanks Gordy and Kirk for bringing up the
subject about Roll Casting. It is a very important
cast!
Gary Davison
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From Lars Bentsen:-
Hi
Gordy!
This
is my first reply in this marvellous study group, which I thouroughly enjoy.
It’s clear that there are different concenptions of these casts in Europe and
USA.
Here
are my answers:
1:
A rollcast is a cast with no or very little change of direction, where a D-loop
is formed below the rod tip instead on a normal backcast, instead using leader
and/or line on the water to create tension.
2:
Yes – otherwise I’d call it a switchcast!
3:
No – only a D-loop hanging below the rod tip.
4:
It can indeed roll out on water – very useful for rollcasting into a headwind!
But can roll out in the air as well!
5:
Bear with me – I don’t recognize “distance roll” as a cast as such, other than a
long rollcast observing points made above.
6:
Similar yes, but spey casts usually require longer strokes as more line is in
play, which results in a deeper bend in the rod.
Best
regards,
Lars
Bentsen
MCCI
Denmark
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
COMMENTS: Lars's is the first "definition" of a roll
cast that includes mention of line-leader tension provided by line "stick" on
the water. I'd consider that an important part of any roll cast
description.
Of course, if we wish to get technical and cover all bases, I
suppose we could include not only the load provided by this tension on the
water, but also that achieved with substitutes such as contrivances to mimick
this such as roll cast tools, and many other methods of achieving tension when
casting on grass or a Gym floor, etc.
Gary's definition ("Forward cast made without making a tradional
back cast" ) is one which, using various words, was a common one. It makes me
ask if that wouldn't also apply to other ways of casting with no true back cast
..... such as the bow-&-arrow cast, the steeple cast, or either the Galway
cast (forward cast in both directions) or a cast made with a back cast
presentation ("Barnegat bay cast") (?)
I don't think we can deny the fact that roll casts can be made on
water or in the air. Ally Gowans mentioned that the on-the-water
roll cast was a traditional way of doing it in the past .... true, though there
are still uses for this form, as Lars mentioned. Joan Wulff uses this one
as her first starter cast for her beginning students. She does so partly
because it is what she considers the simplest of foward casts (the new student
doesn't have to be burdened with a traditional back cast ) and partly
because it breeds immediate success.
Gordy
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"CLOSING ARGUMENTS" by Ally
Gowans:
Hi
Gordy,
Re:
6.) Most agreed that the
delivery moves of the roll cast and the Spey cast were the same ..... however,
that wasn't the way the question was asked.
(6.) Are the delivery
moves of Spey casts roll casts.)
I was the only one who seemed
to look at it differently. I look at the
DELIVERY MOVE
of a roll cast and a Spey cast as a simple
forward cast.
Communication – it’s not what
we transmit – it what is received and understood – I guess that the respondents
brains were firmly in Spey casting mode!
If you like there are
two methods of delivery possible for any cast we either accelerate to a stop
(normal) or we don’t (for certain presentations or faults!) and in this context
we can forget overhead, side arm, roll, spey etc. we can forget the type
of cast entirely.
Communication – see
attached pdf, unfortunately it will appear on its side but I trust that the
communication message will get through! What we say is much less important than
we think it is! This slide is taken from my course for training
gillies/guides.
Roll casts etc – I’ve
attached a chart showing the relationship between cast types and various
embellishments all of which could be added to any cast. I wonder how the group
would accept this proposal?
The test requirement
for the line to be stopped for a “roll cast” is absolutely clear. However in
practice (fishing) this is generally bad practice because you want to have as
much tension as possible in the leader prior to commencement of a cast and it is
better if the line is sliding. It’s also better if a Spey cast anchor is
“sliding” to maintain tension. (The latter requires a degree of skill and
practice to achieve consistently and with some types of lines and fast sink tips
it is practically impossible.)
Best
wishes,
Ally
Gowans
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ally .... I love
the attachment on COMMUNICATION ! Unfortunately, we don't have the luxury
of body language with emails.
The roll cast chart is useful.
As you know, I've always liked your idea of organizing casts into
"families". Fly anglers will never cease to use variations on
any casting theme..... thus the range of various casts and their alterations are
likely to be endless. This fits with your
proposal.
That caused
me to think of 3 questions :
1.) Are roll
casts and Spey casts in the family of roll casts ?..... or in the family of
elliptical casts ?...... or both ?
2.) The Late
Mike Maxwell was considered a Spey casting expert. In his videos as well
as his instruction over the years, he repeatedly insisted that the Spey cast was
NOT a roll cast. He'd often state that a badly made Spey cast could,
"degenerate into a roll cast". Thus, we have different opinions on
that subject.
3.) If the
roll cast is an example of an elliptical cast, and I make a simple roll cast
with my static loop behind with my rod at 20 degrees from vertical .... and then
make my forward cast without changing that rod
orientation, then where is the ellipse ?
(I love this
stuff !!!!)
Gordy
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~