Walter & Group...
I received an address change message from Bill Hoot. Then I changed his address in our Group address book, but our last message to him bounced. Do any of you know Bill's correct new email address ?
Gordy
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From Bill Kessler:
One slight difference of opinion. On number 9, if the loops are parallel you cannot get tailing loop, you can only get an underslung loop which in this case would be due most likely to gravity. A tailing loop is caused by the rod tip dipping under the straight line path and thus would cross the line path twice, once to go under the straight line path and once to rise back above that path, though not necessarily the line itself due to length and placement of the dip. A good example of an underslung loop is a roll cast or any of the spey style casts.
Question: "9.) Can you make a tailing loop if the legs of your loop are not out of parallel ?
His answer: - this a trick question... no. (errr... though maybe a heavily wgt'd bug could mess things up)"
I'm glad you brought up the "underslung loop". We see this a lot with champion distance casters who carry tremendous amounts of line as they cast. I agree with you that this is caused by gravity. Even though the legs of their loops are not parallel, they don't collide. These are not tails.
Gordy
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Thoughtful analysis by Guy Manning My additional comments in his text in red italics G. :-
Gordy,
A couple of comments on
Craig's answers to your loop questions.
Craig writes: 12.) Then what
determines the path and plane of the rod leg (lower leg) of your loop
?
"- tip path after the stop."
I think that the path and plane of the lower leg are initially more influenced by where and how hard you stop, not so much the tip path after the stop. I can maintain direction and shape of a well formed loop even if I drop the rod once the loop is on the way. Lefty used to show this in his demos years ago. Unless I do something drastic with the tip of the rod the loop pretty much goes where you aim it at the stop.
Correct, in that when you stop hard, you alter the path of the rod tip by making it dip farther down during counterflex. Once enough line has left the rod tip (say one rod length or even less) rod tip movement will not have as much effect unless the rod tip is moved a long way.
The path of the loop and, therefore, the fly is determined at RSP (Rod Straight Position) which is somewhere about 1/10th of a second after the STOP. This is the point at which the fly line begins to overtake the rod tip, ie. loop formation. You can't change its direction after that. Guy is also dead on in that Lefty had pointed this out a long time ago.
However, you CAN and often do change the path and plane of the rod leg of the loop even though the loop itself and the fly will go where you aimed it. Two examples:
1.) An in-the-air mend. This represents a change in the rod leg of the loop by action made after the stop and RSP.... and, if done properly, shouldn't change the direction of the loop itself or change the path of the fly or its ultimate destination.
2.) A controlled wide loop (such as when casting a weighted nymph). Here, one way of doing it is to lower the rod tip during counterflex, right after RSP. You don't change the fly leg of the loop, nor do you alter the path of the loop and the fly, but you do change the position of the rod leg of the loop. As Guy says, this is influenced by where and how hard you stop. Why ? Because this can affect counterflex which is movement of the rod tip after the stop and RSP.
This can be contrasted with the wide loop made to kite in the wind. Here, the fly (upper) leg of the loop is altered by having increased rod arc at the start of the stroke, well before the stop and RSP. The fly leg ends up high (more vertical) while the rod leg is not affected.
G.
Gordy writes: " When making a
tailing loop, the earlier you apply an inappropriate spike of power to make the rod
tip dip down and then return, the closer the tail is to the rod tip. "
It
seems to me that ALL tails start at the rod tip and ALL tails travel down the
length of the line toward the leader. So they all show at the end of the line.
Those that show up early in loop propagation were formed early in the stroke.
These can be the large really ugly ones that you see forming even before the
loop has passed the casters head.
Those
that show up later in loop propagation were formed later in the stroke. These
can be seen often in the case of someone who fails to PULL the rod through the
stroke. They usually don’t form until later when the loop is quite forward of
the caster (in the case of a forward cast) and usually don’t appear in casts
less than 35 - 40 feet or so.
Guy
Manning
FFF Master Certified Casting
Instructor
Moderator FFFCCI Yahoo
Group
www.castflys.net
From Gary Taylor. My comments in his text in red italics G. :-
I agree with everything here except the last one, #12. Once you stop....you stop..... with, of course the exception of pulling the loop i.e. the legs apart.
Well ... a lot of things happen after the STOP of the hand and rod butt. After the stop, the rod tip moves fastest until RSP at which point the loop forms. Counterflex than occurs to deflect the tip in the opposite direction. The amount and therefore the effect of counterflex will depend a lot on how "hard" you stop. As Guy Manning points out, this can make a big difference with what happens to the rod leg of the loop.
Nothing else can be added to the "shape" of the line, especially the loop, or cast. The shape of the loop is formed during the cast (application of power, rod tip path) and is affected to some degree by the stop normally, or greater if some sort of "english" is added. Lefty, of course, has always had a nifty way of proving/explaning this when he throws the rod on the grass after the stop.
When Lefty did that, he wasn't trying to show what happened to either leg of the loop, he was showing that just as with a bullet discharged from a gun, that if you throw the gun or the rod down on the ground both the bullet and the fly casting loop will go where you aimed it in the first place.
We can alter the shape and position of the line after the cast as we make mends, too .... but that won't change the direction of the loop or the place where the fly will land.
In my opinion the rod leg is simply a later version of the fly leg......impeded by all the forces at work as the the line bends 180 degrees around the loop and is moving forward against the drag of the air. All these forces could and will mitigate things we could find at fault, or pleasing, about the fly leg.
Confusing in that it depends on your thinking as to which came first...the fly leg or the rod leg, huh?
Interesting way of looking at it ! Seems to me that at RSP, as the fly line starts to overtake the rod tip you immediately have both. Without both, you wouldn't have a loop at all.
I was fortunate enough to travel with Dek Hogan several years ago as his wing man for close to a dozen spey clinics at flyshops from Greenbay to Detroit. He is absolutely one off the Best casters. single handed as well as double handed, I've ever had the pleasure of spending quality time with. He seems to go unnoticed by the monks and geeks of the casting circles.
Dek's take on a cast......especially Spey cast (but is Exactly true for single hand) is that it's a pulling cast. One Pulls the line to the destination. If you'll think about it it could possibly alter how you "see" things a bit. Which comes first, chicken or egg thing? The loop never reaches this part of the line, the fly leg, until after the stop....usually well after the stop and just as it closes in on the intended destination.
I do like the "pull" concept.
I really like Lefty's way of looking at flycasting as "UNROLLING A LOOP TOWARD A TARGET"
Sorry to go off on this tangent, but I've been reading all the thoughful dialog you've been sending me and I just had to get into the fray a little here.
Hey ! Tangents can get us thinking. That's what we're here for ...... Gordy
Capt. Gary Taylor