Setting knots / Forces at RSP / Fishing history

Walter & Group...

On setting knots tightly .... from Dan Storaska:

Thank you Gordy.  I look forward to the follow up.  I don't know how you keep up with all of the mail sometimes!

 

One last question.  When dealing with heavy pound test (I would say 40# and higher) I have such difficulty ensuring that the knots are drawn tight due to the stiffness of the material at these tensile strengths.  In order to really ensure tight knots, I can use a pair of pliers to aid me, but inevitably, I nick or deform the mono in these cases.  What kinds of alternatives are there out there?  Are there plastic or rubber coated pliers that do the trick better?  Something I've been wondering for a long time.

 

Dan

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Dan...

 

I believe it was Lefty Kreh and Flip Pallot who came up with a relatively smooth jawed set of tying pliers marketed by Mangrove.

 

I have a pair and use it in my fly tying room.  I, also, dipped the business end of a standard plier in plastic goop used for dipping rope ends.  Once hardened, it blunts the sharp edge of the plier.  Problem is that it doesn't last for more than a couple of hundred pull downs.

3-M  "5200" works better.  Takes a week or more to set up, but really tough once it has done so.

 

I have a pair of rubber shod pliers grooved to grip the threaded rings on a fly rod ....(You certainlly don't want those rings to loosten when fighting a large fish ! ....... Another subject altogether.)

 

On the skiff or while wading, I use a set of round nosed pliers.  I grip the tag end of the material, THEN WIND THE MATERIAL AROUND THE ROUNDED BLUNT END OF THE PLIERS SEVERAL TIMES.  That allows me to pull with much better control and a lot harder without having an annoying break-off at the edge of the plier jaw.

 

I've mounted a 3/4" stainless steel "strap" to my skiff console.  I can place the hook in this and pull down on the leader material with good control.  I have a stainless steel post epoxied into place (made from a broken stainless ice pick), too for pulling down loops which are not connected to a hook.  This way I can control the rate and smoothness of the "cinch".  (Makes a big difference with respect to knot strength.)

 

Many books on leader knots will give us a figure for the percent strength of each knot.  What they don't tell us, is the variation in knot strength based on how that knot is pulled down tight. Also the number of turns related to the diameter of leader materials for some knots, especially those in the class of clinches.  Tom White and I had learned a lot about that from Lefty, and we set out to prove Lefty's conclusions using various methods of pulling these knots tight and then testing them both with sudden application of a "jerk" force as well as testing with Tom's sophisticated line tester.  We found that Lefty was dead on correct !

 

I really got deep into that stuff years ago while going for fly rod IGFA records.  All of my records except one have been broken ..... that's life.  I don't do that any longer.  (For one thing, I killed too many fish by fighting them to exhaustion trying to land them on "frog hair tippets".)

 

Leaving the tag end long and winding it around a wooden dowel works well, too.

 

Gordy

 

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                                                          Physics .... forces at RSP

 

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From Eric Cook (Eric, a Master, is also an engineer) ..... in answer to Mac Browns question as to the forces at work prior to, at, and immediately following RSP:-

 

Gordy,

 

As for Mac's question on RSP; at the instant the rod hits RSP, the rod is in it's neutral state. Of course we are considering ideal tracking when we say this. If the track of the rod tip path during the stroke was not perfectly straight in the rod plane as well as the plane perpendicular to rod plane, there will be forces acting on the rod tip even at RSP. However, for the truly ideal cast (has that ever been done?), the forces in all planes would be zero. For that ideal cast, just prior to RSP the rod tip is exerting force on the line and just after RSP the line is exerting force on the rod tip. From this we can see that there is, even if it is for a mere instant, a hand off point of what is applying the force (line or rod tip). It is at this hand off point when the forces are zero. Yes we can also look at in the respect of positive and negative forces on each (rod tip and line) and consider RSP at 0, but this can get a bit confusing for most without a physics or engineering background.

 

My short answer is in underlined italics.

 

Eric Cook

 

 

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Eric....    You have described the forces at the rod tip.  Now what is your view of what is happening at the rod butt at RSP ?

 

Gordy

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From Steve Hollensed ( I think Steve also has an engineering background) :

 

Hi Gordy,

 

I am still trying to catch up with all the readings concerning the alternative thoughts on casting.

 

In reference to Mac's question, I think I can help a little. Perhaps what is meant by "zero force" at RSP is really zero NET force. That is, forces may be acting upon the tip, but they are balanced, equal and opposite, at that instant. As time progresses, the forces become unbalanced, resulting in a net force and acceleration of the tip in the direction of the net force.

 

Also, zero net force means zero acceleration, but not always zero value for speed. It means constant speed, whether that value is zero or some other non-zero speed.  

 

And a question...did I understand that there is a question about whether rod unload was caster initiated or not? 

 

Thanks,

Steve 

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RSP is a magical point in the movement of the fly rod, because so much happens here, (or as near as we can tell) including the initiation of the loop as the fly line overtakes the rod tip.  It is also where the rod tip bend reverses direction.  This is why some of us want to find out more about what is going on at this point; better cameras with very high fps capability as well as sophisticated electronic devices being coupled in real time with the video likely necessary for this kind of study, to take it from theory (which is probably correct) to documented fact.

 

To one not well versed in physics or engineering, it might seem that there would be no point where the forces acting upon the rod tip are non existant (zero), because we've learned that any time we have an object in motion, there must be a force vector or resultant acting upon that object.  We also know that RSP is a condition through which the rod tip passes without stopping even for an instant.

 

Our engineers and physicists have taught us otherwise.

 

I think I'm quoting Server Sadik correctly here, "...The load continues to accelerate the system, not decelerate it.  To decelerate - that is to cause a reduction in speed the acceleration has to turn around (act in the opposite direction) and to do this of course it has to pass through zero.  That happens at RSP."  

 

Server also tells us that the point of translation to deceleration occurs at RSP.  (Other words to say the same thing.)

 

I can't answer your question on caster initiated rod unloading, Steve.   I think Server felt that the caster's input on this was that he controls maximum load and nothing more.  Maybe it's true.... but I still have trouble getting that concept into my brain.

 

Gordy

 

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                                                                      HISTORY

 

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From Jim Penrod:

 

Hi Gordy,
  Lots of time to read between PT exercises for my second total knee. I noted in the  picture of cuttyhunk that it had the Zane Grey label which got me thinking about some of the history of Zane Grey. Those of us from my age and up remember Zane Grey as probably the best writer of Western novels in the world. He wrote I think 109 westerns but Zane Grey also wrote other things including sports stories. The most  famous of these was "The Young Pitcher" which I read and reread as a kid. Many of his westerns were made into movies.

   But who was Zane Grey? He by training was a dentist striving to make a living in New York City. His passion was big game fishing both with the spinning rod and the fly rod. However, as a dentist he could not make enough money to support his passion, along with a wife and two sons. So he took to writing westerns which he seemed to be gifted at doing. He quickly became one of the outstanding writers in America and a multimillionaire. He spent a large part of his life fishing and held several world records for shark, blue marlin, sailfish, etc. He had a mother ship built in Newfoundland, outfitted for long voyages and had several fishing boats that it carried. He had a long time crew as well as life  long friends and his brother who accompanied him on these fishing ventures that sometimes lasted six months. Zane Grey explored the Pacific coasts from South America to California, remote regions of the eastern Pacific, Australia, New Zealand, the South  Pacific including Tahiti, Moorea, etc. He wrote at least five books about these fishing adventures which have been republished by the Derrydale Press. The set of 5 is  about $100. If anyone is interested I have the set and can get you the titles, ISBN numbers, etc.

 

He also was instrumental in developing fishing gear. You may recall hearing about 39 thread line, 25(Ithink) thread line, hickory spinning rods, etc. His book about fishing in New Zealand has the most to say about fly fishing. The pictures of the trout are amazing. They were huge. He and Lee Wulff may have clashed. I do not think that Zane Grey put many fish back and he hated sharks and would kill them.

   Hopefully this little bit of  history will be of interest  to some in the group. 

Jim                                                

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Jim...

 

So happens, I just finished reading SALT WATER FLY FISHING, by Van Campen Heilner, Copyright 1937 by Alfred A. Knopf, Inc.  The forward is by Zane Gray, and there are many references to his fishing exploits, especially in Atlantic waters. 

 

One point of interest, is that on p 404, the so-called "IGFA formula" for calculating the approximate weight of a fish in pounds (Square of the girth in inches times the overall length divided by  800 .) is said by the author to have been the brainchild of William H. Wood who was known as a "pioneer of tarpon fishing".  On pp 404-408 he quotes the work of B.R. Kittredge on the detailed rational behind Wood's choice of these measurements and the applied formula which has to do with calculations of the cubic volume of a fish and its specific gravity of 1.15.   Much to much for me to quote, here.

 

This book is long out of print.  Really great old photos and color artistry.   It was in my father's fishing library since 1940.  Amazing that I hadn't read it before this !

 

Gordy