Running line v. Shooting line. / Loop connections

Walter & Group...

Al Buhr has done more experimenting and tweaking of fly lines than anyone I know.  This includes all sorts of fly line line loops and straight line splices.  He has studied their behavior under many different casting circumstances.  This from him.  My comments in his text in red italics :-

Hi Gordy,

Sorry, I may not agree with your wording and believe Steve’s email is descriptive.

Hmmm, it may not directly determine the rod tip path, but it will directly affect the final loop.

Please give some consideration to:

Try not to mix ‘shooting lines’ with ‘running lines’. When I read through your comments, these may be getting exchanged; they are different and can make a fly line respond differently. If “running line” was substituted, then I can visualize the line response and your comments.

You are right on target, Al.   That's exactly what I did. I meant RUNNING LINE when I typed SHOOTING LINE. They certainly do behave differently !  (Some of salty casters here in the Keys erroneously use the terms to mean any line behind the fly line head. I'm often guilty of that, too.)      G.

Do a little experiment. Try a light mono running line, 25# of hard mono, fancy fly fishing mono shooting line is not needed.

A 25# mono shooting line will reveal effects of overhang and as well that distances of 3 to 4 times the head length is reasonable (single-hand).

How a running line responds (overhang and in carrying a false cast) is different than with a shooting line (of a small diameter). This will a fit within the context of Steve’s wording. Try the exercise, it is all about ‘how’ the rod tip unrolls as the rod shaft straightens.

We have done lots of fishing with shooting heads and very small diameter shooting lines of various materials.  The different lines behave very differently with respect to loop formation.

Thanks for pointing this out, Al !       G.

 

SHORT ANSWER:  Overhang does not directly determine the size of the loop.

 Gordy

 

RE: bonded loop

I am in agreement with Bruce of the strength of a welded loop. I submitted the Bonded loop since it is easy, can be done anywhere, has equal or full line break strength. You asked about a 20-pound mono loop connection strength. In either the bonded or welded loop, retaining full core strength should be the norm. A PVC line may be cut by the 20# mono when over-tighten. The PU coating has a harder shell, or I should say, is harder to cut. PU coated line (or loop material) is the best for extreme tension. Braided or woven nylon monofilament (as well as large woven Dacron) tends to cinch excessively tight and can be difficult to undo.

Al

 I meant a 20 pound test class tippet.... not a 20 lb. mono loop.  The idea was to be sure the various loop choices were strong enough that they wouldn't come apart when using these heavy tippets on big game fish.  I would never use a 20 lb mono loop looped to any fly line loop for the reasons you pointed out. 

 At Lefty's suggestion, I've just started trying out loops made with 50 lb. braided nylon monofilament and braided nylon multifilament as well as 50 lb. Dacron multifilament attached to 50 lb. nylon monofilament butt sections. I'm using Dan Blanton's method with the mono butt section fastened inside the hollow core of the braided material. I'll try them under all sorts of fishing circumstances before coming to my own conclusions.  This will take some time as I'll need to haul on a good number of big critters .... (Nasty job, but somebody has to do it) (Reminds me of the way Ted Juracsik tested his new reel drag designs years ago.  To ensure lots of big game hookups in a short time frame, he used heavy tippets, then baited his fly and hooked many sharks, then fought them with various drag settings.)

For the connection between the back end (running line) of the fly line and Spectra backing, I tried 30 lb. Spectra with a modified Bimini twist loop to a loop in the fly line.....  BAD CHOICE !  The Spectra cut through the fly line loop.  I, then, went to 50 lb. Spectra .... took longer, but the Specta still eventually cut the fly line. It cut through the polyurethane coated fly lines, too.

 I have had good success using the same whipped and double nail knotted fly line loops on the end of the running line and the modified Bimini loop on the end of the 50 lb. Spectra backing with a segment of 40 lb. soft nylon mono. interposed .....looped to the fly line loop and to the Spectra loop. I made 1/2" Duncan loops in that mono for the reason that this knot when drawn down evenly and tight goes through the tip top and guides reasonably well.  Haven't had that arrangement fail as yet.  The Duncan loop used this way doesn't slip down .... and even though this is not more than a 70% knot, it is still a lot sronger than it needs to be since it is tied in 40 lb. mono and my class tippets are between 12 lb. and 20 lb. test.

I'm finding, as you did, that the braided nylon and Dacron loops are harder to take apart.  Back when I was trying loop to loop connections between the fly line and 30 lb. Specra, I needed magnifying glasses and a bobbin to get them apart !!

As I experiment with Dacron loops, I'm concerned with the lack of abrasion resistance of this material...... makes me wonder if two dacron loops looped together will wear prematurely when subjected to geat tension over time. (????) 

Gordy